Donny's Ramblings

Allah Vs God

56 Comments

When I posted Ali, The Mulim, a sentence in my post began a bit of discussion in the comments area. I feel that discussion merits it’s own article, so I’m writing this one to clarify what that sentence means.

Here is what I wrote:

Muslim’s serve the God of Abraham , which happens to be the same God those of Christian faith serve as well, even though Muslim’s call him “Allah”.

What’s your thoughts when you read that? Does it make you angry? Does it move you to “correct” me?

The simple fact is that my statement is very much true when taken for what I actually said, rather than reading more into it than I meant. The sentence immediately preceeded one that stated:

During a conversation about the departure of Ali’s wife of many many years, it was not the time to discuss theological differences.

And that, my friends, is also exactly what I meant. I was acknowledging that there are definite differences in what Christians vs Muslims believe about God (and many other things). In no way was I trying to make any assertions as to the “salvation status” of any groups of people. I was merely stating that our Father and their Father are the same Father. There may be differences in perspective on His attributes, but both Christian and Muslim faith begin with the God of Abraham. Keep reading and I’ll further clarify that statement with an example from my own life. But first…

In comment # 22, Jeff posts the following:

I don’t dispute that both faiths start at the God of Abraham, but as you’ve even said, the attributes given to that God are different for each faith. So let me name off three differences in attributes:

-Followers of Christ say that God has a son who became man (Jesus), where followers of Islam say that Jesus was a prophet but NOT the only begotten son of God.
-Followers of Islam say that Muhammed is Allah’s prophet, where followers of Christ say that the law and prophets that had been passed down in the Hebrew faith are God’s prophets.
-Followers of Christ say that God’s blessed people followed the family line of Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 17), where followers of Islam say that God’s blessing followed the family line of Ishmael.

These three statements point out three distinctly different historical attributes given to either God or Allah. They also point to attributes that are 100% at odds with each other. But either side says, “These are attributes of my God, the same God that Abraham believed in.” So even though I agree that each have the same foundation, the foundation alone cannot does not mean that what is built upon it is the same.

— > Yes! Score! Touchdown! Great way to word it, Jeff! <—

Do our differences in beliefs about those issues make one group better than the other? Not at all. Does it mean one group has something confused? Let me answer with that promised example, which I also posted as comment # 24 (in response to the quote I posted from Jeff above).

Here’s what I said:

We’re both speaking the same language now.

This whole thing started because of a sentence I used in my post in which I stated “The Muslims serve the God of Abraham…”

That’s all I meant by that. The sentence after that statement was this one:

“During a conversation about the departure of Ali’s wife of many many years, it was not the time to discuss theological differences.”

The rest of this resulted from comments on that first sentence, and has been a slight bit frustrating because I am of the opinion that so much bickering in the world can be avoided if all of us, Muslim and Christian, remember to just communicate like we would if we were brothers (Christian and Muslim).

Let me elaborate:

Just a few months ago my brother and I were sitting around discussing our childhood. I was completely blown away at some of his perspectives of our parents during our younger years. He seriously believed some of the things that were coming out of his mouth, yet I don’t remember any of the things he claimed happened. It was like he was talking about different people than the parents I knew. I didn’t bother correcting him, because it was evident he was convinced these memories were true.

As I’ve mentioned before, I hated Christians, but I never hated my parents. The negatives I associate with Christianity were the result of actions of people from my parents’ churches. My brother, however, was bitter toward Mom and Dad for many things he attributed to them. I remember it being OTHER people, he remembers it being THEM.

One of us is completely wrong, and if you ask me, it’s HIM. He’d say the same thing about ME, however.

In the case of the Muslims, looking at it from a logical perspective I cannot blame them for the way they feel about God. I have no doubts Ishmael felt like an unwanted outcast when Abraham’s favor followed his younger, “legitimate” siblings. He must have been bitter, don’t you think? Things must have snowballed to the place where all his memories of God were skewed by the hatred and bitterness. To cope with it, who can blame him for beginning to believe that God had actually passed on the “first born” favor to HIM, rather than those hated brothers? He passed his opinions on to his children, who passed it on to their children who… you get the picture.

So now we have a group of people who know no better.

So many Christians fail to realize we have the same “parents”, but like the case with Daniel and I, one of us has our perspectives wrong. At some point I’ll tell my brother about the loving parents I remember, and tell him where the negative feelings I had were rooted. Perhaps he’ll begin remembering things the same way I do, and get rid of some of his bitterness toward Mom and Dad.

Likewise, it would be so much easier to speak with Muslims from the perspective of realization that we both worship the same God, and that we’d like to give them our perspective of His grace and plan. It won’t be enough for most of them, no doubt, but it would sure make it easier if all they have to accept is a “perspective shift”, rather than the acceptance of an entirely different Creator.

Know what I mean?

Does that make a bit more sense? I’m sure hoping so.

In my opinion, Muslims definitely need a “perspective shift” about God. I’d love for all of them to realize that God wants a relationship with ALL of his children, and that he’s made it SO EASY to have that relationship. He sent Jesus to die for all of our sins, and simply accepting that sacrifice, that gift, allows an amazing relationship to begin between them and their Creator.

Unfortunately, discussions like that rarely happen, because humans seem to prefer feeling superior to others, and often use their beliefs on God to somehow back up those feelings. I don’t get it. God loves all of us. We’re all his kids. He doesn’t want us fighting and arguing. He wants us loving each other, and having a great relationship with Him. Some of us have screwed up “memories” of Him, and those memories will never be changed with a spirit of hatred and division.

And when our brothers don’t accept what we have to say or what we believe, let’s never resort to killing them over it, whaddaya say? World history has more than enough bloodshed (be it literal or otherwise) in the name of God, don’t you think?

That’s just my 2 cents…

56 thoughts on “Allah Vs God

  1. A conversation via MySpace messages with a man on MySpace with whom I enjoy conversing and discussing God:

    —–

    From: Donny Pauling
    Date: 02 Oct 2007, 11:12

    Any perspectives on this?

    —–

    From: Furyan
    Date: Oct 2, 2007 11:14 AM

    Same God, Two full of Shit religions. Amen

    —–

    From: Donny Pauling
    Date: 02 Oct 2007, 11:16

    Two groups of people trying to show they’re more “right” or “better” than the other, both failing to understand that all of us are brothers from the same family and that our Dad has no preferences.

    —–

    From: Furyan
    Date: Oct 2, 2007 11:17 AM

    And I wish more people could understand that.

  2. A conversation via MySpace messages with a man on MySpace with whom I enjoy conversing and discussing God:

    —–

    From: Donny Pauling
    Date: 02 Oct 2007, 11:12

    Any perspectives on this?

    —–

    From: Furyan
    Date: Oct 2, 2007 11:14 AM

    Same God, Two full of Shit religions. Amen

    —–

    From: Donny Pauling
    Date: 02 Oct 2007, 11:16

    Two groups of people trying to show they’re more “right” or “better” than the other, both failing to understand that all of us are brothers from the same family and that our Dad has no preferences.

    —–

    From: Furyan
    Date: Oct 2, 2007 11:17 AM

    And I wish more people could understand that.

  3. Excellent & easy to understand, with love, the explanation of how we all have the same Daddy God. I love your example of you & your brother’s perspective. It really makes it easier to comprehend.

    Something worth noting is that Ismael was the direct result of Sarah not trusting God’s Word & timing to bring to pass the promise He gave Abraham. She got anxious, became impatient & got involved trying to ‘make it happen.’ There’s a lesson to learned about not making, pushing or pulling strings to make things God has promised to come to pass. It’s best…for us & quite possibly, mankind…. that we wait & trust God’s perfect timing.

  4. Excellent & easy to understand, with love, the explanation of how we all have the same Daddy God. I love your example of you & your brother’s perspective. It really makes it easier to comprehend.

    Something worth noting is that Ismael was the direct result of Sarah not trusting God’s Word & timing to bring to pass the promise He gave Abraham. She got anxious, became impatient & got involved trying to ‘make it happen.’ There’s a lesson to learned about not making, pushing or pulling strings to make things God has promised to come to pass. It’s best…for us & quite possibly, mankind…. that we wait & trust God’s perfect timing.

  5. “And when our brothers don’t accept what we have to say or what we believe, let’s never resort to killing them over it, whaddaya say? World history has more than enough bloodshed (be it literal or otherwise) in the name of God, don’t you think?”

    So…ovens should be used for baking bread.

    “When I feed the poor they call me a saint. When I ask why there are poor who need to be fed, they call me a Communist.”
    Emmanuel Alcantara

  6. “And when our brothers don’t accept what we have to say or what we believe, let’s never resort to killing them over it, whaddaya say? World history has more than enough bloodshed (be it literal or otherwise) in the name of God, don’t you think?”

    So…ovens should be used for baking bread.

    “When I feed the poor they call me a saint. When I ask why there are poor who need to be fed, they call me a Communist.”
    Emmanuel Alcantara

  7. Randy,

    What a powerful quote you just posted…. I think I’ll add it to my MySpace profile.

    Thanks!

  8. Randy,

    What a powerful quote you just posted…. I think I’ll add it to my MySpace profile.

    Thanks!

  9. Well said Donny. Be careful though, some Christian Pharisees will begin to question your salvation because you are suggesting that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

  10. Well said Donny. Be careful though, some Christian Pharisees will begin to question your salvation because you are suggesting that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

  11. Paul,

    Thanks for the comment. 🙂

    It’s sad how thin the egg shells are upon which one must walk if he or she wishes to remain completely “accepted” by his or her peers. Fortunately, God does not require us to be accepted by our peers in order to have a relationship with Him. 🙂 Nor does He allow their opinions to influence our ultimate destiny in Him.

    For that I thank Him.

    🙂

  12. Paul,

    Thanks for the comment. 🙂

    It’s sad how thin the egg shells are upon which one must walk if he or she wishes to remain completely “accepted” by his or her peers. Fortunately, God does not require us to be accepted by our peers in order to have a relationship with Him. 🙂 Nor does He allow their opinions to influence our ultimate destiny in Him.

    For that I thank Him.

    🙂

  13. kudos donny…

    couldn’t have said it better myself

  14. kudos donny…

    couldn’t have said it better myself

  15. God forgive us, Christians say and do some really stupid things. It is a good thing God is so loving and merciful. He has to be to put up with children like us.

    First, let me point out that I come to this discussion from the perspective of a Roman Catholic. Catholics do not believe that non-Christians are going to hell for believing in the wrong god, or believing in God in the wrong way. Here is a link to a document proving it. It is called NOSTRA AETATE and came out of the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

    Actually, many Catholics would doubt that anyone is in hell at all. Thomas Aquinas wrote that, as far as he could figure, there was a hell, and theoretically, someone could actively decide to go there. OTOH, he was not at all sure if a loving and merciful God would ever send one of His children there. This is not a new idea. Aquinas wrote in the 13th century, well before the Protestant Reformation.

    Of course, there are Christians out there who would claim that I and others like me are really not Christians, that we worship idols, and that we are all going to hell. One very prominent Protestant preacher who founded a university and named it after himself celebrated the death of Pope Paul VI by consigning him to hell and labeling him “the arch-priest of Satan.” It is said that observers used to say of the early Christians, “Look how they love one another.” How is it then, that years later, so many of us spend so much time either assigning each other to hell, or even trying to dispatch each other there?

    There is another website out there with which Donny is familiar, and which some of you have no doubt visited. It is run by a former porn actress. She attempts to reach out to people in the porn industry and minister to them. Recently, she posted an obituary for a porn actress who had died of a heroin overdose. The response of some people on her page was that, regardless of how sad this was or how much this woman had suffered, if she had not accepted Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior, she was in hell. Sorry about that, but the scriptures are quite clear. Tough break, kid.

    Tomorrow, I am scheduled to show a couple Japanese tourists around. I do not know thier religious background, but if they were born in Japan, chances are overwhelming that they are not Christian. If they follow any religion at all, they are probably Buddhist. They came into town to attend my nephew’s wedding, and as long as they are here, I offered to play tour guide. Imagine that. These folks came halfway around the world to celebrate the wedding of my nephew, who I dearly love. Instead of graciously playing host, should I spend the day trying to convince them that they are going to hell for picking the wrong religion? Of course, whether they picked it or not is debatable. I, like most Christians, got my religion from growing up with it. Of course, I had to choose to follow it, but that was much easier to do than it would be if I grew up in Japan or Iran. Does that mean that God loves me more than he does the people there? Did he intend for me to go the heaven because Christianity was the default option for me, while for much of the rest of the world, it would be an exotic and difficut alternative? I tend to think not. When it came to the subject of God’s love, Jesus did not seem to care much for hereditary privelege. I recall something about how God could make sons of Abraham out of chunks of rock.

    He also cautioned against too much self-assurance when it came to salvation, suggesting that many of those who think they are going to make the cut are wrong. Personally, I think he was using a little hyperbole. I believe God is going to give even the most ornery of us about as much chance to get to heaven as He possibly can, but you get the point. As for me, if heaven is as restrictive a place as some of my Christian bretheren would seem to suggest, I will take my chances with hell. I am probably doomed anyway, and at least I would get to hang out with people who I actually like.

    Finally, let me mention something that some of you have clearly missed. Who is this guy Donny is talking to, anyway? Some anonymous cab driver named Ali?

    NO STUPID, IT’S JESUS!

    Did Jesus not say that whatever we do to the least of his brothers, we do to him? Did he not clearly call on us to care for the sick, the suffering, those in prison? Here we have Donny talking about an incident where he got to extend the love of God to a suffering person, who was, in case you did not notice, the very Christ in his midst. And you people want to argue about what God he worships!

    That is why Donny’s ministry and those like it accomplish anything at all. You can if you choose confront the people who make and consume porn and self-righteously remind them that they are sinners. And you would be correct. They are. Of course, so are you, so they are unlikely to be impressed when you point this out, and you are unlikely to convince them to change thier behavior. People respond a whole lot more to love and compassion. They are more likely to see and recognize Jesus the Christ in those who treat them as if they were Him.

    St. Agustine, (another guy who pre-dated the Reformation by 1000 years or so, so Protestants ought to be OK with him) whittled most theology down to one sentence.

    “Love God, and do what you will.”

    I am not as eloquent as Augustine, but I will offer my own advice to Christians. See Christ in those around you. Serve Christ in those around you. Then shut up.

  16. God forgive us, Christians say and do some really stupid things. It is a good thing God is so loving and merciful. He has to be to put up with children like us.

    First, let me point out that I come to this discussion from the perspective of a Roman Catholic. Catholics do not believe that non-Christians are going to hell for believing in the wrong god, or believing in God in the wrong way. Here is a link to a document proving it. It is called NOSTRA AETATE and came out of the Second Vatican Council in 1965.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

    Actually, many Catholics would doubt that anyone is in hell at all. Thomas Aquinas wrote that, as far as he could figure, there was a hell, and theoretically, someone could actively decide to go there. OTOH, he was not at all sure if a loving and merciful God would ever send one of His children there. This is not a new idea. Aquinas wrote in the 13th century, well before the Protestant Reformation.

    Of course, there are Christians out there who would claim that I and others like me are really not Christians, that we worship idols, and that we are all going to hell. One very prominent Protestant preacher who founded a university and named it after himself celebrated the death of Pope Paul VI by consigning him to hell and labeling him “the arch-priest of Satan.” It is said that observers used to say of the early Christians, “Look how they love one another.” How is it then, that years later, so many of us spend so much time either assigning each other to hell, or even trying to dispatch each other there?

    There is another website out there with which Donny is familiar, and which some of you have no doubt visited. It is run by a former porn actress. She attempts to reach out to people in the porn industry and minister to them. Recently, she posted an obituary for a porn actress who had died of a heroin overdose. The response of some people on her page was that, regardless of how sad this was or how much this woman had suffered, if she had not accepted Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior, she was in hell. Sorry about that, but the scriptures are quite clear. Tough break, kid.

    Tomorrow, I am scheduled to show a couple Japanese tourists around. I do not know thier religious background, but if they were born in Japan, chances are overwhelming that they are not Christian. If they follow any religion at all, they are probably Buddhist. They came into town to attend my nephew’s wedding, and as long as they are here, I offered to play tour guide. Imagine that. These folks came halfway around the world to celebrate the wedding of my nephew, who I dearly love. Instead of graciously playing host, should I spend the day trying to convince them that they are going to hell for picking the wrong religion? Of course, whether they picked it or not is debatable. I, like most Christians, got my religion from growing up with it. Of course, I had to choose to follow it, but that was much easier to do than it would be if I grew up in Japan or Iran. Does that mean that God loves me more than he does the people there? Did he intend for me to go the heaven because Christianity was the default option for me, while for much of the rest of the world, it would be an exotic and difficut alternative? I tend to think not. When it came to the subject of God’s love, Jesus did not seem to care much for hereditary privelege. I recall something about how God could make sons of Abraham out of chunks of rock.

    He also cautioned against too much self-assurance when it came to salvation, suggesting that many of those who think they are going to make the cut are wrong. Personally, I think he was using a little hyperbole. I believe God is going to give even the most ornery of us about as much chance to get to heaven as He possibly can, but you get the point. As for me, if heaven is as restrictive a place as some of my Christian bretheren would seem to suggest, I will take my chances with hell. I am probably doomed anyway, and at least I would get to hang out with people who I actually like.

    Finally, let me mention something that some of you have clearly missed. Who is this guy Donny is talking to, anyway? Some anonymous cab driver named Ali?

    NO STUPID, IT’S JESUS!

    Did Jesus not say that whatever we do to the least of his brothers, we do to him? Did he not clearly call on us to care for the sick, the suffering, those in prison? Here we have Donny talking about an incident where he got to extend the love of God to a suffering person, who was, in case you did not notice, the very Christ in his midst. And you people want to argue about what God he worships!

    That is why Donny’s ministry and those like it accomplish anything at all. You can if you choose confront the people who make and consume porn and self-righteously remind them that they are sinners. And you would be correct. They are. Of course, so are you, so they are unlikely to be impressed when you point this out, and you are unlikely to convince them to change thier behavior. People respond a whole lot more to love and compassion. They are more likely to see and recognize Jesus the Christ in those who treat them as if they were Him.

    St. Agustine, (another guy who pre-dated the Reformation by 1000 years or so, so Protestants ought to be OK with him) whittled most theology down to one sentence.

    “Love God, and do what you will.”

    I am not as eloquent as Augustine, but I will offer my own advice to Christians. See Christ in those around you. Serve Christ in those around you. Then shut up.

  17. Hey Donny (from….heck, all of it),
    OK, now I get it. You were basically saying that Adam and Eve are all our ultimate grandparents, that we are all related and maybe if we started acting like that (in EVERY way), the world would look a lot less pockmarked by war and disillusionment.
    The cool thing about our exchage? We argue like brothers…completely firm in our own positions, knowing we probably agree WAY more than disagree and just trying to find the right place of communication. Does that make sense?

  18. Hey Donny (from….heck, all of it),
    OK, now I get it. You were basically saying that Adam and Eve are all our ultimate grandparents, that we are all related and maybe if we started acting like that (in EVERY way), the world would look a lot less pockmarked by war and disillusionment.
    The cool thing about our exchage? We argue like brothers…completely firm in our own positions, knowing we probably agree WAY more than disagree and just trying to find the right place of communication. Does that make sense?

  19. As an aside….the prodigal son seems to be an appropriate example now. I don’t want to be the tool who begrudges his brother a place at home…I want to be the first to throw him the celebration!

  20. As an aside….the prodigal son seems to be an appropriate example now. I don’t want to be the tool who begrudges his brother a place at home…I want to be the first to throw him the celebration!

  21. Yes, Muslim’s believe that they have the same God as the Jews and the Christians. Is it really the same God? I know most Christians will say no. I will say no. We might have the same roots, but it is not the same God. Their God is only One God with out three parts. Our God has three parts– Father, Son, Holy Spirit. To us Jesus is Lord to them Jesus is just a man created by God.

  22. Yes, Muslim’s believe that they have the same God as the Jews and the Christians. Is it really the same God? I know most Christians will say no. I will say no. We might have the same roots, but it is not the same God. Their God is only One God with out three parts. Our God has three parts– Father, Son, Holy Spirit. To us Jesus is Lord to them Jesus is just a man created by God.

  23. How’s about this for a quote:

    “But my mission isn’t to figure out who is already blessed, or not blessed, or unblessable. My calling is to be blessed so I can bless everyone.”

    Donny, you’ve been blessed; and you have been a blessing to Ali. Shoot, you’ve even been a blessing to me.

  24. How’s about this for a quote:

    “But my mission isn’t to figure out who is already blessed, or not blessed, or unblessable. My calling is to be blessed so I can bless everyone.”

    Donny, you’ve been blessed; and you have been a blessing to Ali. Shoot, you’ve even been a blessing to me.

  25. What a discussion. This will probably be my last comment on it.

    God does not play favorites. We are all His children, regardless.
    Believing wrong things about God prevents us from experiencing His love.
    It also leads us to hurt others.
    As Christians, our highest goal should be to know God intimately. This leads us to serve and love others, which is the greatest witness we can give.
    Saying Allah and the God of the Bible are the same perpetuates a false belief about God, regardless of the qualifiers that are added.

    There seems to be an assumption that Islam somehow was passed down from Abraham through Ishmael to the Arab people. This is not the case. The people living in the Arabian peninsula were mostly polytheistic with a few Christians or followers of Judaism before Muhammad. His message was that the Jews and Christians had corrupted the Bible and that he had received the truth about God through visions. He said that this was the God of Abraham. The Quran describes a god that is very, very different from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A person who believes that the Quran describes God has a very great barrier to overcome to experience the love that God wants to give them. This doesn’t make them evil or inferior.

    But it is very important that we not confuse Allah and the God of the Bible even as we love the people who believe differently.

  26. What a discussion. This will probably be my last comment on it.

    God does not play favorites. We are all His children, regardless.
    Believing wrong things about God prevents us from experiencing His love.
    It also leads us to hurt others.
    As Christians, our highest goal should be to know God intimately. This leads us to serve and love others, which is the greatest witness we can give.
    Saying Allah and the God of the Bible are the same perpetuates a false belief about God, regardless of the qualifiers that are added.

    There seems to be an assumption that Islam somehow was passed down from Abraham through Ishmael to the Arab people. This is not the case. The people living in the Arabian peninsula were mostly polytheistic with a few Christians or followers of Judaism before Muhammad. His message was that the Jews and Christians had corrupted the Bible and that he had received the truth about God through visions. He said that this was the God of Abraham. The Quran describes a god that is very, very different from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A person who believes that the Quran describes God has a very great barrier to overcome to experience the love that God wants to give them. This doesn’t make them evil or inferior.

    But it is very important that we not confuse Allah and the God of the Bible even as we love the people who believe differently.

  27. Donny,

    I have to agree with Jim and add the fact that Muhammed actually selected Allah out of the many gods available in the region to find a single ‘god’ with which to unify the diverse factions and tribes in the area at the time. The very fact that the ‘holy book’ which he was given by ‘Gabriel’ calls on good Muslims to kill Jews seems to indicate that it was perhaps not the same Gabriel who announced the birth of the Savior of the world nor the same God who made an everlasting covenant with the Jews.

    I understand your example of brothers with a differing perspective, but it is not just a matter of seeing the same God in different ways. We must love Muslims and pray for opportunity to share the truth of the Gospel with them, but we can’t honestly say that we have the same God.

    I hope you can respect my view, because I’m not trying to be rude or mean, just share the truth.

    Love you and your ministry brother,

    Steve

  28. Donny,

    I have to agree with Jim and add the fact that Muhammed actually selected Allah out of the many gods available in the region to find a single ‘god’ with which to unify the diverse factions and tribes in the area at the time. The very fact that the ‘holy book’ which he was given by ‘Gabriel’ calls on good Muslims to kill Jews seems to indicate that it was perhaps not the same Gabriel who announced the birth of the Savior of the world nor the same God who made an everlasting covenant with the Jews.

    I understand your example of brothers with a differing perspective, but it is not just a matter of seeing the same God in different ways. We must love Muslims and pray for opportunity to share the truth of the Gospel with them, but we can’t honestly say that we have the same God.

    I hope you can respect my view, because I’m not trying to be rude or mean, just share the truth.

    Love you and your ministry brother,

    Steve

  29. Once again, a human, acting completely on their own with no inspiration or authority from God, comes along and screws the whole thing up!!!

    Thanks alot Muhammad! Way to go!

  30. Once again, a human, acting completely on their own with no inspiration or authority from God, comes along and screws the whole thing up!!!

    Thanks alot Muhammad! Way to go!

  31. Dear Donny,
    I think I probably said enough in the Ali blog and it’s great that you taken it here.

    However, just to comment on something repeated several times that I think probably isn’t quite true, if taken at face value…especially since so many in the secular sphere quote it…that “we are all God’s children”. Not to get too technical but stay biblical, I think we have to find a different way of positioning the world…the world, Christ came to save. I only beg to differ on the phraseology by virtue of a few scriptures. We are certainly all His creation or part of the human family that Christ came to save, but to be His children and be in His family, and to take a more biblical position, consider: John 1:12:
    “But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name–” Also Romans 8:14-17,21
    14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
    15For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!
    16The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
    17And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
    21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God’s children.
    1 John 4:6:
    6We are [children] of God. Whoever is learning to know God [progressively to perceive, recognize, and understand God by observation and experience, and to [a]get an ever-clearer knowledge of Him] listens to us; and he who is not of God does not listen or pay attention to us. By this we know (recognize) the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.
    1 John 5:2:
    2By this we come to know (recognize and understand) that we love the children of God: when we love God and obey His commands (orders, charges)–[when we keep His ordinances and are mindful of His precepts and His teaching].
    Amplified Bible
    Anyway, that’s my two sense, in as much as we often carry over ideas the world coins to ease itself, such as “God helps those who help themselves”. The idea that “we are all God’s children” makes it seem that salvation is arbitrarily all inclusive, void of needing the Jesus factor. I may be short sided on this, or sound like I am coming across legalistically fanatical, but I’m only quoting scripture that is plain and clear on the subject. Everyone surely falls into the category of being the “world” as “For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world…”, but to be His children, we have to believe and receive the other half of that verse in John 3:16, “that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.” Amplified Bible

  32. Dear Donny,
    I think I probably said enough in the Ali blog and it’s great that you taken it here.

    However, just to comment on something repeated several times that I think probably isn’t quite true, if taken at face value…especially since so many in the secular sphere quote it…that “we are all God’s children”. Not to get too technical but stay biblical, I think we have to find a different way of positioning the world…the world, Christ came to save. I only beg to differ on the phraseology by virtue of a few scriptures. We are certainly all His creation or part of the human family that Christ came to save, but to be His children and be in His family, and to take a more biblical position, consider: John 1:12:
    “But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name–” Also Romans 8:14-17,21
    14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
    15For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!
    16The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
    17And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
    21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God’s children.
    1 John 4:6:
    6We are [children] of God. Whoever is learning to know God [progressively to perceive, recognize, and understand God by observation and experience, and to [a]get an ever-clearer knowledge of Him] listens to us; and he who is not of God does not listen or pay attention to us. By this we know (recognize) the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.
    1 John 5:2:
    2By this we come to know (recognize and understand) that we love the children of God: when we love God and obey His commands (orders, charges)–[when we keep His ordinances and are mindful of His precepts and His teaching].
    Amplified Bible
    Anyway, that’s my two sense, in as much as we often carry over ideas the world coins to ease itself, such as “God helps those who help themselves”. The idea that “we are all God’s children” makes it seem that salvation is arbitrarily all inclusive, void of needing the Jesus factor. I may be short sided on this, or sound like I am coming across legalistically fanatical, but I’m only quoting scripture that is plain and clear on the subject. Everyone surely falls into the category of being the “world” as “For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world…”, but to be His children, we have to believe and receive the other half of that verse in John 3:16, “that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.” Amplified Bible

  33. If she didn’t want to remain so private, I’d share Wendy’s response to me on this. She definitely put me in my place on it, though. We’ll just leave it at that.

    I’m backing out of this discussion for now. Hee Hee.

    Signed,

    Donny: the man with too much opinion and not enough education on the matter

  34. If she didn’t want to remain so private, I’d share Wendy’s response to me on this. She definitely put me in my place on it, though. We’ll just leave it at that.

    I’m backing out of this discussion for now. Hee Hee.

    Signed,

    Donny: the man with too much opinion and not enough education on the matter

  35. That’s one of the things I love about her, by the way. She’ll always “let me have it” when I need it.

    🙂

  36. That’s one of the things I love about her, by the way. She’ll always “let me have it” when I need it.

    🙂

  37. I would venture that “Love God, and do what you will” is perhaps one of the most ‘release-your-inhibitions’ and serve satan urges I’ve ever heard. Almost every human being on the planet does that every day.

    People are calling God whatever they want, and for most it is not the living God.
    Reminds me of a quote from the satanic bible that also says something about ‘doing whatsoever ye will’…

  38. I would venture that “Love God, and do what you will” is perhaps one of the most ‘release-your-inhibitions’ and serve satan urges I’ve ever heard. Almost every human being on the planet does that every day.

    People are calling God whatever they want, and for most it is not the living God.
    Reminds me of a quote from the satanic bible that also says something about ‘doing whatsoever ye will’…

  39. For those of you that look to the Bible for it’s literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That’s a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there’s Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn’t care for, by the way. And finally, I’ve always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: “and all the king’s horses, and all the king’s men couldn’t put Humpty together again.” That’s because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None. Not one. Never was. No God.
    — George Carlin

    .02

  40. For those of you that look to the Bible for it’s literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That’s a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there’s Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn’t care for, by the way. And finally, I’ve always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: “and all the king’s horses, and all the king’s men couldn’t put Humpty together again.” That’s because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None. Not one. Never was. No God.
    — George Carlin

    .02

  41. Hola!

    What do you think about Tokio Hotel? >:)

  42. Hola!

    What do you think about Tokio Hotel? >:)

  43. Okay, here goes my “Dear John” letter,
    Certainly the bible has many merits for its historical, spiritual and otherwise valuable existence, such as the vast archeology, the numerous faiths, etc. that have derived from it which at least prove most of its historical settings, has brought hope, be it false, as unbelievers may claim, as well as having a vast history of misinterpreted understanding of it, that has led many to Crusade, force legalistically and otherwise, people to do some of the stupidest things (mind you, not it, but those who claim to believe it has said to do such and such). It no doubt, is a book of life or death, depending on how you view it, or what you’ve experienced, or how you have seen it through the grid of your own understanding.
    However, I take it that as perhaps an atheist or even agnostic, you have taken the scientific, factual approach to come to your absolute conclusion that there is no God. Certainly a comparison to fairy tales isn’t all you have use to conclude that, but instead from a more serious approach, considering that if the bible’s claims or even the notion of a god with hell and heaven to boot, eternity isn’t something you want to just tuck away as just another nursery rhyme.
    In addition, I take it that you have also indeed traveled the far reaches of the many universes to consider every single molecule or substance out there, not to mention all of the lands and seas of our vast planet, or even been to places that not one scientist has even ventured of the vast miles of underwater, under the earth places, leaving no stone unturned. If so, then as a scientist, having all the evidences possible, you have tapped into every place? And if not, could you even consider that for all those places you have not been to, or studied, that perhaps, that is where God is hiding, in the places you have not been to?
    You cannot possibly agree that scientifically you have proven that God does not exist; otherwise you are not being true to yourself or anyone else, because you cannot make such a profound and absolute claim, without evidence…evidence I can say, is impossible for you to obtain, unless of course you can indeed do everything I just mentioned, in part or in whole, to come to such a concrete conclusion.
    Certainly life’s challenges, disappointments, distractions, betrayals, hurt, pain, the meaningless death of thousands and millions, is not any evidence of God’s non-existence. Or perhaps, if He, for all He claims to be, didn’t answer your prayers, or what have you, not even one prayer, is not evidence either.
    As for the bible, it doesn’t hide reality with its historical facts of incest, abuse, betrayal, anger, hatred, love, lust, hope, etc. Certainly people in scripture didn’t all have all their prayers answered or always got what they had hoped for, etc. Anyone’s personal experience or non-experience isn’t necessarily the end all of whether there is a God or not.
    Certainly fairy tales and nursery rhymes, as per the best of them, always give us a glimpse into what might be or what we hope there might be, as it reverberates within the caverns of our souls…if we even have one…as if it recognizes the truth or reality it just heard, no more, no less than some of the best movies that inspire us or also give us a glimpse into the realities of something otherworldly beyond this world. So whether it is “Mary had a little lamb…” or “Someday my Prince will come”…or the battle of the Force against the dark side, the surrender of Obe-won to the slash of Vader, or of Neo’s death and resurrection and overpowering strength, or of Aslan in Narnia or of the Ring of sin and death, or of the good in “Remember the Titans” or “Men of Honor” or even the best of romance movies that give hope as say “Jerry McGuire” where there was something for both men and women…it all points to something deep inside of us, like the platform of an operating system in a computer, you build upon…it’s the synchronicity and rhythm of life that we are living and feeling…
    Oh wait a minute, while science can tell us about the chemical changes that go on in us when we hate, love, are full of joy, are bitter, etc. and psycho analysis can explain why one reacts in cause and effect in terms of these emotions, nothing scientific can put a finger on where those emotions come from or how we’ll react, unless we consider what people believe and how that influences their responses, such as the Amish forgiving and caring for the widow of the man who abused and killed their girls and children in that school some time ago, or why Shiites hate Sunnis because of one killing the nephew of Mohammad many centuries ago and the many centuries long grudge and hate that has brought, not to mention the hate they have for Jews and all of the bloodshed that it has caused.
    Anyway, back to the point. Someone a long time ago told me they saw this written on a wall in college:
    “God is dead” – Friedrich Nietzsche
    “Nietzsche is dead” – God
    So whether someone wants to play on words or what have you, the truth is, to deny anyone their experience with God in that they believe He exists, is foolish if your approach is simply based on your own experience which may not include a sense that He exists. So, whether there are skeletons in the closet that have more to do with challenges one has had to prove His existence but was let down, rather than that one can honestly and truthfully prove He doesn’t exist, at least within your own experience, is probably a more honest consideration. Apparently there are many universes that others live in where they have encountered Him. In this politically correct period where the liberal mindset is that we should be tolerant of everyone’s views, except of course if one believes in the Christian view, it seems that to believe in God makes one a fool to believe in such fairy tales.
    To quote a line from a painting I once saw:
    “God hides Himself from those who try to analyze Him,
    But reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him”
    Also to quote the scripture, whether you believe it or not… and it’s not me saying this but in a sobering and yet teaching way, King David repeating himself from Psalm 14:1, says this:
    Psalm 53:1a
    To the Chief Musician; in a mournful strain. A skillful song, or didactic or reflective poem of David.
    THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God…
    Amplified Bible
    My challenge for you then is that in as much as the entire universe, and oceans deep, must be scaled to know it all, I am sure that there are even areas of your own heart that you have yet to face, encounter or venture into, to be able to honestly and absolutely say, that indeed, there is no God.
    Finally, in the end, it won’t be “all of the King’s men and all of the King’s horses” that will put Humpty together again, but rather the King Himself. Considering the words of a song of years past:
    “I’ve heard it said, ‘that God helps those who help themselves’, but I say, God, He helps the helpless, and leaves all the rest to help themselves.”

  44. Okay, here goes my “Dear John” letter,
    Certainly the bible has many merits for its historical, spiritual and otherwise valuable existence, such as the vast archeology, the numerous faiths, etc. that have derived from it which at least prove most of its historical settings, has brought hope, be it false, as unbelievers may claim, as well as having a vast history of misinterpreted understanding of it, that has led many to Crusade, force legalistically and otherwise, people to do some of the stupidest things (mind you, not it, but those who claim to believe it has said to do such and such). It no doubt, is a book of life or death, depending on how you view it, or what you’ve experienced, or how you have seen it through the grid of your own understanding.
    However, I take it that as perhaps an atheist or even agnostic, you have taken the scientific, factual approach to come to your absolute conclusion that there is no God. Certainly a comparison to fairy tales isn’t all you have use to conclude that, but instead from a more serious approach, considering that if the bible’s claims or even the notion of a god with hell and heaven to boot, eternity isn’t something you want to just tuck away as just another nursery rhyme.
    In addition, I take it that you have also indeed traveled the far reaches of the many universes to consider every single molecule or substance out there, not to mention all of the lands and seas of our vast planet, or even been to places that not one scientist has even ventured of the vast miles of underwater, under the earth places, leaving no stone unturned. If so, then as a scientist, having all the evidences possible, you have tapped into every place? And if not, could you even consider that for all those places you have not been to, or studied, that perhaps, that is where God is hiding, in the places you have not been to?
    You cannot possibly agree that scientifically you have proven that God does not exist; otherwise you are not being true to yourself or anyone else, because you cannot make such a profound and absolute claim, without evidence…evidence I can say, is impossible for you to obtain, unless of course you can indeed do everything I just mentioned, in part or in whole, to come to such a concrete conclusion.
    Certainly life’s challenges, disappointments, distractions, betrayals, hurt, pain, the meaningless death of thousands and millions, is not any evidence of God’s non-existence. Or perhaps, if He, for all He claims to be, didn’t answer your prayers, or what have you, not even one prayer, is not evidence either.
    As for the bible, it doesn’t hide reality with its historical facts of incest, abuse, betrayal, anger, hatred, love, lust, hope, etc. Certainly people in scripture didn’t all have all their prayers answered or always got what they had hoped for, etc. Anyone’s personal experience or non-experience isn’t necessarily the end all of whether there is a God or not.
    Certainly fairy tales and nursery rhymes, as per the best of them, always give us a glimpse into what might be or what we hope there might be, as it reverberates within the caverns of our souls…if we even have one…as if it recognizes the truth or reality it just heard, no more, no less than some of the best movies that inspire us or also give us a glimpse into the realities of something otherworldly beyond this world. So whether it is “Mary had a little lamb…” or “Someday my Prince will come”…or the battle of the Force against the dark side, the surrender of Obe-won to the slash of Vader, or of Neo’s death and resurrection and overpowering strength, or of Aslan in Narnia or of the Ring of sin and death, or of the good in “Remember the Titans” or “Men of Honor” or even the best of romance movies that give hope as say “Jerry McGuire” where there was something for both men and women…it all points to something deep inside of us, like the platform of an operating system in a computer, you build upon…it’s the synchronicity and rhythm of life that we are living and feeling…
    Oh wait a minute, while science can tell us about the chemical changes that go on in us when we hate, love, are full of joy, are bitter, etc. and psycho analysis can explain why one reacts in cause and effect in terms of these emotions, nothing scientific can put a finger on where those emotions come from or how we’ll react, unless we consider what people believe and how that influences their responses, such as the Amish forgiving and caring for the widow of the man who abused and killed their girls and children in that school some time ago, or why Shiites hate Sunnis because of one killing the nephew of Mohammad many centuries ago and the many centuries long grudge and hate that has brought, not to mention the hate they have for Jews and all of the bloodshed that it has caused.
    Anyway, back to the point. Someone a long time ago told me they saw this written on a wall in college:
    “God is dead” – Friedrich Nietzsche
    “Nietzsche is dead” – God
    So whether someone wants to play on words or what have you, the truth is, to deny anyone their experience with God in that they believe He exists, is foolish if your approach is simply based on your own experience which may not include a sense that He exists. So, whether there are skeletons in the closet that have more to do with challenges one has had to prove His existence but was let down, rather than that one can honestly and truthfully prove He doesn’t exist, at least within your own experience, is probably a more honest consideration. Apparently there are many universes that others live in where they have encountered Him. In this politically correct period where the liberal mindset is that we should be tolerant of everyone’s views, except of course if one believes in the Christian view, it seems that to believe in God makes one a fool to believe in such fairy tales.
    To quote a line from a painting I once saw:
    “God hides Himself from those who try to analyze Him,
    But reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him”
    Also to quote the scripture, whether you believe it or not… and it’s not me saying this but in a sobering and yet teaching way, King David repeating himself from Psalm 14:1, says this:
    Psalm 53:1a
    To the Chief Musician; in a mournful strain. A skillful song, or didactic or reflective poem of David.
    THE [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God…
    Amplified Bible
    My challenge for you then is that in as much as the entire universe, and oceans deep, must be scaled to know it all, I am sure that there are even areas of your own heart that you have yet to face, encounter or venture into, to be able to honestly and absolutely say, that indeed, there is no God.
    Finally, in the end, it won’t be “all of the King’s men and all of the King’s horses” that will put Humpty together again, but rather the King Himself. Considering the words of a song of years past:
    “I’ve heard it said, ‘that God helps those who help themselves’, but I say, God, He helps the helpless, and leaves all the rest to help themselves.”

  45. I way I understood it, after Mohamed received the Koran from the angel, the Arab tribes at the time were worshiping several false goods at the time.. Allah was the god of the moon.. So Mohamed decreed that Allah was the one God.. (why all Islamic nations have a crescent moon on their flags)

    Sorry.. didn’t mean to be one of THOSE Christians who corrected everyone..

  46. I way I understood it, after Mohamed received the Koran from the angel, the Arab tribes at the time were worshiping several false goods at the time.. Allah was the god of the moon.. So Mohamed decreed that Allah was the one God.. (why all Islamic nations have a crescent moon on their flags)

    Sorry.. didn’t mean to be one of THOSE Christians who corrected everyone..

  47. I posted this on the other part, but should have posted it here:
    Some key points to “salve your wounds”
    Point 1 Donny is right in seeing the simple common ground before the “fork in the road” in the lines coming from Abraham.
    Point 2 Abraham (the Father of many nations) was neither Jew nor Muslim, and certainly not Christian.
    Point 3 There are many differences in how each group perceives God, but from a Christian standpoint, there are more denominations among Protestants (of which I am one) than there are Abraham religions, and there has to be points that some of us are still missing.
    Point 4 No one had any exposure to the true nature of God until the time of the Transfiguration when Jesus was standing in the river Jordan and the Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove and God spoke down from the heavens, “This is my beloved Son, and I am truly pleased with him.”(Matthew 3-16, NLT) And you know that know one understood what they were seeing then, as we only see it with the blessing of 20/20 hindsight afforded us by the Holy Bible.
    Point 5 Christianity is about relationships. As a salesman by trade, it is important for me in my work to establish familiarity very quickly as a sale is on the line. The same thing applies to witnessing, when the time is right, as there is nothing more “on the line” than someone’s soul who has not received Christ (but I am in whole-hearted agreement with Donny’s spiritual wisdom at the moment with Ali).
    BIBLICAL EXAMPLE: When Paul preached in Athens, (Acts, Chapter 17) he was distressed by all of the idols he saw there. He debated with Jews, God-fearing Gentiles, and Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. And when he got to the part of Jesus’ death and resurrection, they took him to the Council of Philosophers, where he really BROKE IT DOWN, or as we say in the south, “Shelled down the corn.” He starts with the COMMON GROUND in verse 22, again from the NLT:
    22 So Paul, standing before the council,[a] addressed them as follows: “Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about.
    24 “He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn’t live in man-made temples, 25 and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need. 26 From one man[b] he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.
    27 “His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him—though he is not far from any one of us. 28 For in him we live and move and exist. As some of your[c] own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29 And since this is true, we shouldn’t think of God as an idol designed by craftsmen from gold or silver or stone.
    30 “God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him. 31 For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.”
    Point 6 It can be very intimidating for anyone who hasn’t received Christ for us to come up to them with “all of the tiny nuances that we have learned in our own Christian walks”, or our “studies of other religions in an attempt to spice up our witnessing”, when mainly what we really need to impart to the world is God’s majesty and sovereignty over our lives, recognition of our sinful nature and the undeserved favor of God through Christ Jesus, which is grace. All of the rhetoric that we get in the habit of, while it is enjoyable, only serves our own spiritual growth and understanding, and I fear that sometimes we spend too much time in the classroom when we should be “out there” loving one another as Jesus commanded. May God bless you and keep you as you continue to walk in his will.
    I have enjoyed myself here and feel blessed to call you Brothers in Christ.
    In Christ’s Love, Grace, and Peace,
    Kevin

  48. I posted this on the other part, but should have posted it here:
    Some key points to “salve your wounds”
    Point 1 Donny is right in seeing the simple common ground before the “fork in the road” in the lines coming from Abraham.
    Point 2 Abraham (the Father of many nations) was neither Jew nor Muslim, and certainly not Christian.
    Point 3 There are many differences in how each group perceives God, but from a Christian standpoint, there are more denominations among Protestants (of which I am one) than there are Abraham religions, and there has to be points that some of us are still missing.
    Point 4 No one had any exposure to the true nature of God until the time of the Transfiguration when Jesus was standing in the river Jordan and the Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove and God spoke down from the heavens, “This is my beloved Son, and I am truly pleased with him.”(Matthew 3-16, NLT) And you know that know one understood what they were seeing then, as we only see it with the blessing of 20/20 hindsight afforded us by the Holy Bible.
    Point 5 Christianity is about relationships. As a salesman by trade, it is important for me in my work to establish familiarity very quickly as a sale is on the line. The same thing applies to witnessing, when the time is right, as there is nothing more “on the line” than someone’s soul who has not received Christ (but I am in whole-hearted agreement with Donny’s spiritual wisdom at the moment with Ali).
    BIBLICAL EXAMPLE: When Paul preached in Athens, (Acts, Chapter 17) he was distressed by all of the idols he saw there. He debated with Jews, God-fearing Gentiles, and Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. And when he got to the part of Jesus’ death and resurrection, they took him to the Council of Philosophers, where he really BROKE IT DOWN, or as we say in the south, “Shelled down the corn.” He starts with the COMMON GROUND in verse 22, again from the NLT:
    22 So Paul, standing before the council,[a] addressed them as follows: “Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about.
    24 “He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn’t live in man-made temples, 25 and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need. 26 From one man[b] he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.
    27 “His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him—though he is not far from any one of us. 28 For in him we live and move and exist. As some of your[c] own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29 And since this is true, we shouldn’t think of God as an idol designed by craftsmen from gold or silver or stone.
    30 “God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him. 31 For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.”
    Point 6 It can be very intimidating for anyone who hasn’t received Christ for us to come up to them with “all of the tiny nuances that we have learned in our own Christian walks”, or our “studies of other religions in an attempt to spice up our witnessing”, when mainly what we really need to impart to the world is God’s majesty and sovereignty over our lives, recognition of our sinful nature and the undeserved favor of God through Christ Jesus, which is grace. All of the rhetoric that we get in the habit of, while it is enjoyable, only serves our own spiritual growth and understanding, and I fear that sometimes we spend too much time in the classroom when we should be “out there” loving one another as Jesus commanded. May God bless you and keep you as you continue to walk in his will.
    I have enjoyed myself here and feel blessed to call you Brothers in Christ.
    In Christ’s Love, Grace, and Peace,
    Kevin

  49. Reminder: There’s only ONE WAY to Heaven and if you don’t know Him or Believe in Him, you ain’t getting there.

    If you know Christ then you could never say that Christians and Muslims serve the same God because by doing so you’ve forgotten the ONE WAY to Heaven. Muslims are waiting on a Savior that even Jesus Himself will say we need to bow down to….that’s the Antichrist.

    So, what do you think? Are both religions destined to the same eternity? I don’t think so.

  50. Reminder: There’s only ONE WAY to Heaven and if you don’t know Him or Believe in Him, you ain’t getting there.

    If you know Christ then you could never say that Christians and Muslims serve the same God because by doing so you’ve forgotten the ONE WAY to Heaven. Muslims are waiting on a Savior that even Jesus Himself will say we need to bow down to….that’s the Antichrist.

    So, what do you think? Are both religions destined to the same eternity? I don’t think so.

  51. One more thing….please be sure you understand exactly what a Pharisee is before you use the term to label others. Pharisees were the religious leaders of Jesus time who didn’t believe He was who He claimed to be, or that He could do what He claimed He could do.

    So a Pharisee today would be anyone who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the true Son of GOd and that He is the ONE Way to Heaven.

  52. One more thing….please be sure you understand exactly what a Pharisee is before you use the term to label others. Pharisees were the religious leaders of Jesus time who didn’t believe He was who He claimed to be, or that He could do what He claimed He could do.

    So a Pharisee today would be anyone who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the true Son of GOd and that He is the ONE Way to Heaven.

  53. Abbey,

    I have blocked your emails on MySpace. Please don’t make me start blocking your comments here. We’ve discussed many things before. As I pointed out to you in the past, you need to stop reading into what you THINK I’m saying. Can you point out where I gave any indication on the salvation status of any group of people? No. I did not. Instead of emailing people all the time complaining about what YOU THINK they believe, focus on yourself. Perhaps start reading more, Abbey. Pick up some commentaries. Listen to some audio books. Subscribe to some podcasts.

    Just stop bugging me with your constant need to nitpick. You have a habit of doing this to me and to XXXChurch and to anyone who will listen. Start being FREE Abbie. As I said, I blocked you on MySpace and will not hesitate to do so here.

  54. Abbey,

    I have blocked your emails on MySpace. Please don’t make me start blocking your comments here. We’ve discussed many things before. As I pointed out to you in the past, you need to stop reading into what you THINK I’m saying. Can you point out where I gave any indication on the salvation status of any group of people? No. I did not. Instead of emailing people all the time complaining about what YOU THINK they believe, focus on yourself. Perhaps start reading more, Abbey. Pick up some commentaries. Listen to some audio books. Subscribe to some podcasts.

    Just stop bugging me with your constant need to nitpick. You have a habit of doing this to me and to XXXChurch and to anyone who will listen. Start being FREE Abbie. As I said, I blocked you on MySpace and will not hesitate to do so here.

  55. Hmm. Seeing True Believers of any faith gives me a strange little glow and intrested me enough to post here, thats pretty rare for me.

    I am a Catholic Christian by birth and upbringing, however I do not practice – I have little faith in priests or those who preach too loudly, being cynical in general does that.

    I have some experiance with people being ‘born-again’ as well as non-, slightly and moderatly religious people. I’ve gladly avoided those I consider severely religious or zealot-like. A friend of mine a few years ago, badly depressed, found in religion a way to escape depression and enjoy life, however he also found a bigot’d and racist attitude that opened my own eyes to the reality of things, particularly newspapers, websites and any books.

    You should always bear in mind that the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, they are all historic, ancient books. The Bible has changed with time, the Old Testament is full of blood, fire and faith. The New Testament is – to me at least – sweetened for the modern audience, attracting converts by the ‘we’re so nice’ approach. I don’t doubt that any holy book has changed slightly over time, had words added, removed, or their meanings ever so subtly changed. Or wrongly taught, if you are taught only the Old Testament, or the ‘Verses of the Sword’, your in a whole lot of trouble in this modern world and liable to die quite early for what you then believe to be the absolute truth.

    I find the Jewish faith and the Islamic faiths quite intresting (often as bloody as Christianity) and read bits and pieces when I like, both in non-fictional and semi-fictional works, as well as translations here and there. It is probably impossible to understand each faith without dedicating a lifetime or more to each. In general I’ve found faith can be a good thing, like all good things though, no moderation lets it become destructive.

    In short: I have no faith or devotion to any kind of Supreme God or Allah or anything else, although I do suspect occasionally there is a god or overseer of some variety, often mainly that they have a sense of humor and enjoy watching the world.

    More likely about the Bible, Torah, Koran, of-choice book in my view? God is fictional, created by leaders of men (most who probably did honestly believe) to get men to lead to accomplish great and, at least in their opinion, good things. Generally local unification in the early years of humanity, by force typically. There are exceptions, those who did not use force seem to have remained small and fairly local faiths with an ancient history and much respect within and without their own worshippers. For example, if you found out someone you met was a Buddhist – even knowing only the most meagre about their faith, you probably have an instinctive respect for that faith and thus a smaller fraction assigns itself to the person.

    I do not much care which religion you follow, I may be intrested if you choose to tell me, which God you support. The most apt phrase to me “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.

    You don’t need Faith, to live faithfully. (Readers may recognise T. Pratchett at work there!)

    You don’t need to Believe in God, to believe in the people around you.

    I think sometimes, people get so fixated on worshipping that they forget that they must perform their own actions and forge their own path, wether their God granted it to them or not they have not and will not force or dictate anything at all, thought the person may force themselves citing belief!

    For the record, I am probably a light-to-moderate sinner in any three god’s eyes, given the way we live in the UK. I consider myself good natured, very neutral to most ideas and well brought-up, if a little lazy. If I die and should see God, Allah, Satan or the Antichrist in some kind of Judgement, Heaven or Hell as applies to me, I will be fairly surprised but whatever way, I’ll still be grinning because I will know the answer!

    I probably won’t ever worship a God, I will live my own way each day and find out the end result when I see the big ‘Game Over’ screen (sorry, I’m an avid gamer, gaming practically IS my religion*bait bait* 🙂 ). Everyone dies and finds out in due time, worrying about it on the way there simply takes away true freedom and true choice.

    Only your choices, actions and the results of both really matter. Religion, Heaven or Hell, God or not, may help you influence your choice but it comes with so much extra baggage and concern.

    Enjoy life, because sooner than you expect the world will go dark and you’ll get your answer, regardless, if you even never asked the question.

    Hmm…I rambled a bit. I’ll save this site, if any interesting comments come my way, I’ll reorganise my thoughts to be a bit more legible.

  56. Hmm. Seeing True Believers of any faith gives me a strange little glow and intrested me enough to post here, thats pretty rare for me.

    I am a Catholic Christian by birth and upbringing, however I do not practice – I have little faith in priests or those who preach too loudly, being cynical in general does that.

    I have some experiance with people being ‘born-again’ as well as non-, slightly and moderatly religious people. I’ve gladly avoided those I consider severely religious or zealot-like. A friend of mine a few years ago, badly depressed, found in religion a way to escape depression and enjoy life, however he also found a bigot’d and racist attitude that opened my own eyes to the reality of things, particularly newspapers, websites and any books.

    You should always bear in mind that the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, they are all historic, ancient books. The Bible has changed with time, the Old Testament is full of blood, fire and faith. The New Testament is – to me at least – sweetened for the modern audience, attracting converts by the ‘we’re so nice’ approach. I don’t doubt that any holy book has changed slightly over time, had words added, removed, or their meanings ever so subtly changed. Or wrongly taught, if you are taught only the Old Testament, or the ‘Verses of the Sword’, your in a whole lot of trouble in this modern world and liable to die quite early for what you then believe to be the absolute truth.

    I find the Jewish faith and the Islamic faiths quite intresting (often as bloody as Christianity) and read bits and pieces when I like, both in non-fictional and semi-fictional works, as well as translations here and there. It is probably impossible to understand each faith without dedicating a lifetime or more to each. In general I’ve found faith can be a good thing, like all good things though, no moderation lets it become destructive.

    In short: I have no faith or devotion to any kind of Supreme God or Allah or anything else, although I do suspect occasionally there is a god or overseer of some variety, often mainly that they have a sense of humor and enjoy watching the world.

    More likely about the Bible, Torah, Koran, of-choice book in my view? God is fictional, created by leaders of men (most who probably did honestly believe) to get men to lead to accomplish great and, at least in their opinion, good things. Generally local unification in the early years of humanity, by force typically. There are exceptions, those who did not use force seem to have remained small and fairly local faiths with an ancient history and much respect within and without their own worshippers. For example, if you found out someone you met was a Buddhist – even knowing only the most meagre about their faith, you probably have an instinctive respect for that faith and thus a smaller fraction assigns itself to the person.

    I do not much care which religion you follow, I may be intrested if you choose to tell me, which God you support. The most apt phrase to me “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.

    You don’t need Faith, to live faithfully. (Readers may recognise T. Pratchett at work there!)

    You don’t need to Believe in God, to believe in the people around you.

    I think sometimes, people get so fixated on worshipping that they forget that they must perform their own actions and forge their own path, wether their God granted it to them or not they have not and will not force or dictate anything at all, thought the person may force themselves citing belief!

    For the record, I am probably a light-to-moderate sinner in any three god’s eyes, given the way we live in the UK. I consider myself good natured, very neutral to most ideas and well brought-up, if a little lazy. If I die and should see God, Allah, Satan or the Antichrist in some kind of Judgement, Heaven or Hell as applies to me, I will be fairly surprised but whatever way, I’ll still be grinning because I will know the answer!

    I probably won’t ever worship a God, I will live my own way each day and find out the end result when I see the big ‘Game Over’ screen (sorry, I’m an avid gamer, gaming practically IS my religion*bait bait* 🙂 ). Everyone dies and finds out in due time, worrying about it on the way there simply takes away true freedom and true choice.

    Only your choices, actions and the results of both really matter. Religion, Heaven or Hell, God or not, may help you influence your choice but it comes with so much extra baggage and concern.

    Enjoy life, because sooner than you expect the world will go dark and you’ll get your answer, regardless, if you even never asked the question.

    Hmm…I rambled a bit. I’ll save this site, if any interesting comments come my way, I’ll reorganise my thoughts to be a bit more legible.

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