Donny's Ramblings

Is God a Baby Killer?

94 Comments

A few weeks ago I watched John McCain on The View, where he stated that he believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned. On this, I agree with John McCain.  Too bad he has little power to do anything about it.  In another interview he publicly stated that, if President, the Justices he’d nominate to the Supreme Court would NOT have to pass a litmus test in regards to their opinions on abortion.  In other words… business as usual.

18 hours ago I received an email from a woman who attends the same church I attend. She wrote, “I will be so bold as to say that anyone who calls themself a Christian should not be ABLE to cast a vote for a baby killer.”

She is, of course, referring to Barack Obama, who is Pro-Choice.

Abortion is an important topic in our country, and one on which most people have strong emotions one way or another.  My position is clear:  I hate abortion.  I don’t think a woman should be allowed to kill her unborn baby and not face the same consequences any other murderer faces.  And when it boils down to it, that’s exactly what Roe v Wade does:  removes the threat of earthly consequences from the Doctors who perform abortions and the women who CHOOSE to have them.

But, dear Christian, does the legality of abortion make it a viable option for you?  No?  Why not?  Could it possibly be because one’s “choice” is actually a condition of the heart? The ONLY way to rid this country of abortion is to change hearts!  No law will ever change a person’s heart.

Since he is not a Medical Doctor, I think it’s a safe bet to say that Barack Obama has never performed an abortion.

Unless he’s a freak of nature, I think it’s a safe bet to say that Barack Obama has never personally had an abortion, either.

But if Barack Obama is a “baby killer” because he espouses a belief that a pregnant woman should be allowed to make the decision as to whether or not she’ll terminate her pregnancy, if THAT is the criteria to make one a “baby killer”, then perhaps we should consider this question as well:

Is GOD HIMSELF a baby killer?

After all, God gave each of us free will to make choices in our lives, choices which ultimately lead to death, didn’t He?  And millions, perhaps billions, have made those choices, haven’t they?  So does allowing choice make God Himself a murderer?

I’d imagine that all who proclaim a belief in God are also convinced that He has the last word.  He makes the final judgment.  Those who make the decision to murder their children might escape punishment here on earth, but He dishes out eternal consequences.

Senator Obama is not responsible for the choices of pregnant women or the Doctors who perform abortions.  With my own ears I’ve heard him state the opinion that he personally detests the thought of abortion, but believes each woman has the right to make such a choice.  He may favor giving a “pass” from earthly consequences, but Barack Obama is not a baby killer any more than God is a baby killer.  In His infinite power, God could quite easily intercede and stop abortion, or murder, or rape… or any other man made, sin inspired malady.  But He doesn’t.  He allows us to make our choices, yet wishes us to know that there are consequences for our decisions.

There is also redemption available, isn’t there?  There is a cure for the heart condition that leads to a person being capable of ending the life of the innocent.  The final payment for our sins is eternal death.  We can make payment in person, or we can allow God Himself to pay it for us.  The choice is ours.  He’s opened an account in our name for the exact amount owed by each and every one of us for the sins we’ve committed…  sins that have the exact same result as that of a woman or doctor ending a child’s life:  eternal separation from the Creator of the Universe.  The payment in that account can be claimed by any person at any time in any place simply by CHOOSING to say, “I’ll take it!  Thank you SO MUCH!”.

When God made a personal appearance, in the flesh, right here on this earth He asked those of us who have accepted that payment to become His doctors,  offering the cure for this world’s bad heart condition to others.  It seems to me that sometimes we don’t see the bigger picture.  Some of us would rather scream at the young mother walking into an abortion clinic than to embrace her, tell her about the CURE, and offer to help her take care of the child in her womb. Others might think it’s a better use of our time to accuse a man like Senator Obama of being a baby killer based on his opinion that earthly consequences should be removed for those who make this very bad choice.

It’s much easier for us to sit around and complain about HIS opinion than to get out and make an effort to change hearts, isn’t it?  We’d rather sit around talking about who will outlaw what, ignoring more than 3 decades of history that shows no politician is going to do anything to overturn a “flawed decision”, than getting out our doctor bags and making house calls.

I hate that “choice” just as much as anyone.  I also despise the idea of capital punishment because I don’t think it’s any man’s place to decide when any other person’s time to choose Eternal Life should run out.  My stomach turns at the choice that has lead to the killing of more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi women and children under the guise of “stopping terror.”

I read one of those email forwards going around in which the following was stated:  “I’m voting Republican because Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush’s daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush Junior needed a ‘we can’t find Bin Laden’ diversion.” Although the intent of the original writer is clear, there’s a good point hidden inside that sentence… there is NO innocence in this election…  neither candidate running for President is innocent.  Barack Obama advocates allowing women to make the choice to end innocent life, yet John McCain supported the decision to ORDER our military personnel to end innocent life.

(that same email also stated, “I’m voting Republican because trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony” but that’s a whole other topic…  one can find hypocrisy wherever he looks)

In wrestling with my decision on which of these two men I’ll be casting my vote for I can’t help but think, “If he was a bit younger, I’d write in Billy Graham (who happens to be a lifelong Democrat by the way) as my choice for President.”  Under his watch, more than 2.5 million hearts from around the world have been united with the cure for what ails ’em.  But since Reverend Graham is more interested in promoting Christ than politics, I doubt he’d accept the position even if it was offered.

When we make ignorant statements like the one that prompted this post we don’t do God any favors.  It’s okay to disagree with Senator Obama in regards to his opinions on abortion.  It’s okay to disagree with Senator McCain’s support of a deceptive decision to go to war.  But I think it’s divisive to bully others into voting our way by calling candidates “baby killers” (or “terrorists”).

Can we instead maintain civil discussion, vote our conscience, leave the “conscience” of others between them and God, and decide to unite as one body in our efforts to offer the cure to our country’s heart condition?  Is that too much to ask?

After all, healed hearts make issues like abortion… moot.

Please take the time to read this article, written by best selling Christian author Donald Miller and published today on his blog.

94 thoughts on “Is God a Baby Killer?

  1. This may be pushing the “extreme” button, but here is goes anyways.

    Voting for a President that supports abortion is really no different that voting for someone that would support lets say; the views of Hitler. I highly doubt Hitler was even near a gas chamber yet by his hand he sought to wipe out an entire race of people. Is what Hitler did any different that what our Government has done? Hitler never killed anyone with his own hands, but he held the door open to those gas chambers.

    Democrats and Republicans alike have stood by and watched the genocide of millions of unborn babies. The Republicans campaign on it, yet do nothing. They use that platform for political gain then it becomes just another thing on the list once they are elected. They have their hands dirty as well.

    All that being said; we are to vote for men and women that uphold Gods plan for life. I don’t see any way around it. Regardless of what else is going on in the world we are to vote based on our faith and trust in God. God will honor a Nation that follows His ways and honors His Word. While you may be right that regardless of who is elected, the chance of Roe v Wade being overturned is slight, Obama will most likely get two Supreme Court Nominees and he has made it clear they will be very liberal. Obama will also get no pressure at all in making those nominations. While I think McCain has been weak in this area as you pointed out, his own party will force him to the pro-life side on these appointments. Do you really see the Democrats pushing Obama for a pro-life nomination?

    There’s a TON of reasons to not vote for Obama and this is sure one of them. I won’t even get into his stand on Israel, taxes and Socialist views.

    Hope all is well Donny. Great topic!

    Jeff

  2. This may be pushing the “extreme” button, but here is goes anyways.

    Voting for a President that supports abortion is really no different that voting for someone that would support lets say; the views of Hitler. I highly doubt Hitler was even near a gas chamber yet by his hand he sought to wipe out an entire race of people. Is what Hitler did any different that what our Government has done? Hitler never killed anyone with his own hands, but he held the door open to those gas chambers.

    Democrats and Republicans alike have stood by and watched the genocide of millions of unborn babies. The Republicans campaign on it, yet do nothing. They use that platform for political gain then it becomes just another thing on the list once they are elected. They have their hands dirty as well.

    All that being said; we are to vote for men and women that uphold Gods plan for life. I don’t see any way around it. Regardless of what else is going on in the world we are to vote based on our faith and trust in God. God will honor a Nation that follows His ways and honors His Word. While you may be right that regardless of who is elected, the chance of Roe v Wade being overturned is slight, Obama will most likely get two Supreme Court Nominees and he has made it clear they will be very liberal. Obama will also get no pressure at all in making those nominations. While I think McCain has been weak in this area as you pointed out, his own party will force him to the pro-life side on these appointments. Do you really see the Democrats pushing Obama for a pro-life nomination?

    There’s a TON of reasons to not vote for Obama and this is sure one of them. I won’t even get into his stand on Israel, taxes and Socialist views.

    Hope all is well Donny. Great topic!

    Jeff

  3. Hiter ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?

    God allows choice, even bad choices, because free will is impossible without “choice”. He then asks us to help change hearts by offering the cure, so people make the RIGHT choices… because they WANT to.

    When a man meets a new love interest his life changes without her saying a word. He changes to please her. He changes out of love. If we point the way to Jesus, and people fall in love with Him, abortion goes away simply because people want to please Him and therefore begin to make the right choices… by choice. 🙂

    Focusing our attention on legislating morality is NEVER going to point to Jesus as much as getting out our doctor bags and making house calls.

  4. Hiter ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?

    God allows choice, even bad choices, because free will is impossible without “choice”. He then asks us to help change hearts by offering the cure, so people make the RIGHT choices… because they WANT to.

    When a man meets a new love interest his life changes without her saying a word. He changes to please her. He changes out of love. If we point the way to Jesus, and people fall in love with Him, abortion goes away simply because people want to please Him and therefore begin to make the right choices… by choice. 🙂

    Focusing our attention on legislating morality is NEVER going to point to Jesus as much as getting out our doctor bags and making house calls.

  5. Ms Goldfarb,

    I ruined hundreds of lives by producing pornography. Do those who associate with me have a responsibility for that too?

    You realize Obama was 8 years old when Ayres did what he did, right?

    Now also realize that none of this has any bearing on the fact that the answer to what ails us is Jesus, and we have two men running for President who claim Him as their savior. That is wonderful, isn’t it?

  6. Ms Goldfarb,

    I ruined hundreds of lives by producing pornography. Do those who associate with me have a responsibility for that too?

    You realize Obama was 8 years old when Ayres did what he did, right?

    Now also realize that none of this has any bearing on the fact that the answer to what ails us is Jesus, and we have two men running for President who claim Him as their savior. That is wonderful, isn’t it?

  7. One last thing Donny!

    You are so very right when you say “After all, healed hearts make issues like abortion… moot.”

    Yelling at young girls, calling them “baby killers” or worse should be unthinkable to those that are called of God. Doing ANYTHING but loving them and praying for them is wrong. We can have an opinion and we can state is clearly, however, as you said; healed hearts make all these issues go away.

    The Pro-Life movement has in many ways, had it ALL WRONG. They took the love out of it. They took the brokenness out of it. They forgot that for every aborted baby there is a young mother or father in desperate need of love and help. The movement has in many ways become self centered. They forget that in most cases there are two other people besides the baby that are being torn apart that day. Where is the love and support for them? We have sooooo missed the boat there.

    It’s true, we can not vote in morality. However, I firmly believe we are to vote for someone that upholds life and basic Christian values. I don’t want to be standing before God and ask to explain why I didn’t vote for life. That being sad… I don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I yelled at some girl on the day of her abortion either.

    I think God smiles on people who are in the healing hearts business. He certain he is not happy with those in the condemnation business.

  8. One last thing Donny!

    You are so very right when you say “After all, healed hearts make issues like abortion… moot.”

    Yelling at young girls, calling them “baby killers” or worse should be unthinkable to those that are called of God. Doing ANYTHING but loving them and praying for them is wrong. We can have an opinion and we can state is clearly, however, as you said; healed hearts make all these issues go away.

    The Pro-Life movement has in many ways, had it ALL WRONG. They took the love out of it. They took the brokenness out of it. They forgot that for every aborted baby there is a young mother or father in desperate need of love and help. The movement has in many ways become self centered. They forget that in most cases there are two other people besides the baby that are being torn apart that day. Where is the love and support for them? We have sooooo missed the boat there.

    It’s true, we can not vote in morality. However, I firmly believe we are to vote for someone that upholds life and basic Christian values. I don’t want to be standing before God and ask to explain why I didn’t vote for life. That being sad… I don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I yelled at some girl on the day of her abortion either.

    I think God smiles on people who are in the healing hearts business. He certain he is not happy with those in the condemnation business.

  9. Jeff,

    I also don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I voted for a person who supported a decision that killed thousands of innocent women and children in another country, and explaining why I didn’t care as much because they were far away in a different culture.

    This is my dilemma. Both sides have blood on their hands, in a way.

    Barack Obama is Pro Choice. He supports granting the right to women to end innocent life without consequences, but he would still rather they didn’t take advantage of that right.

    John McCain professes Pro-Life but voted to end life… not just to end it, but to COMMAND our military to end it. “Oh well… a few hundred thousand innocent lives being ended is just a casualty of war”. A war for what? Not for the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, that’s for sure. He’s over in Afghanistan.

    Nobody is innocent in this election. Neither of them. And just because McCain professes with his MOUTH that he’s pro-Life I’m supposed to vote for him? His actions have led to death. And he stated in the last debate with Barack that his Supreme Court decisions are not going to have a litmus test of the nominee’s opinion on abortion. That means he won’t care if they do or don’t support abortion.

    It would be business as usual, just like all of our other Republican Presidents since 1973’s R v W decision.

  10. Jeff,

    I also don’t want to be standing before God explaining why I voted for a person who supported a decision that killed thousands of innocent women and children in another country, and explaining why I didn’t care as much because they were far away in a different culture.

    This is my dilemma. Both sides have blood on their hands, in a way.

    Barack Obama is Pro Choice. He supports granting the right to women to end innocent life without consequences, but he would still rather they didn’t take advantage of that right.

    John McCain professes Pro-Life but voted to end life… not just to end it, but to COMMAND our military to end it. “Oh well… a few hundred thousand innocent lives being ended is just a casualty of war”. A war for what? Not for the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, that’s for sure. He’s over in Afghanistan.

    Nobody is innocent in this election. Neither of them. And just because McCain professes with his MOUTH that he’s pro-Life I’m supposed to vote for him? His actions have led to death. And he stated in the last debate with Barack that his Supreme Court decisions are not going to have a litmus test of the nominee’s opinion on abortion. That means he won’t care if they do or don’t support abortion.

    It would be business as usual, just like all of our other Republican Presidents since 1973’s R v W decision.

  11. “Hitler ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?”

    Ordering? Supporting?

    I met a guy recently that was in jail on a Ministry trip. He was 22 years old and as part of a joke, stood with other friends and watched one of his friend beat a homeless man to death with a baseball bat. The friends supported the guy that did the beating by not trying to stop the beating that resulted in the death of that man. They were all found guilty and are currently spending 10 years in a Prison in Michigan because they stood by and did nothing. He didn’t order the killing of this man; he just stood by and did nothing.

    We have a voice by voting. It might be a small one, but we do indeed have one. While our vote might not be the vote that changes things, we are to vote in a way that would be pleasing to God. Standing by and doing nothing makes us as guilty as those kids that watched that guy being beat to death in Gods eyes.

    Yes, we have free will and even if Roe v Wade is overturned today, Abortion and Free Will without question will continue. Free will goes back to the Garden. A vote for life won’t change Free Will. Free Will is also a mental choice that happens in most cases, far before the actual sin. We have free will to either accept or reject God. Sin is just the byproduct of ones rejection of God.

  12. “Hitler ORDERED lives to the gas chamber. When was the last time you heard any person who is “pro choice” order any other person to have an abortion?”

    Ordering? Supporting?

    I met a guy recently that was in jail on a Ministry trip. He was 22 years old and as part of a joke, stood with other friends and watched one of his friend beat a homeless man to death with a baseball bat. The friends supported the guy that did the beating by not trying to stop the beating that resulted in the death of that man. They were all found guilty and are currently spending 10 years in a Prison in Michigan because they stood by and did nothing. He didn’t order the killing of this man; he just stood by and did nothing.

    We have a voice by voting. It might be a small one, but we do indeed have one. While our vote might not be the vote that changes things, we are to vote in a way that would be pleasing to God. Standing by and doing nothing makes us as guilty as those kids that watched that guy being beat to death in Gods eyes.

    Yes, we have free will and even if Roe v Wade is overturned today, Abortion and Free Will without question will continue. Free will goes back to the Garden. A vote for life won’t change Free Will. Free Will is also a mental choice that happens in most cases, far before the actual sin. We have free will to either accept or reject God. Sin is just the byproduct of ones rejection of God.

  13. So, again, is God a murderer because he stands by allowing us to kill? He has the power to stop it, too, just like your friend in Michigan.

    Barack Obama isn’t a murderer because he supports one’s God given right to choose. He simply favors removing the earthly consequences.

    I don’t agree with him. But I am confident he is not a baby killer either.

  14. So, again, is God a murderer because he stands by allowing us to kill? He has the power to stop it, too, just like your friend in Michigan.

    Barack Obama isn’t a murderer because he supports one’s God given right to choose. He simply favors removing the earthly consequences.

    I don’t agree with him. But I am confident he is not a baby killer either.

  15. Ummmm… One slight flaw with this argument though. Couldn’t the same be said of murder? Murder is a choice and yet it is not legal. Just a thought.

  16. Ummmm… One slight flaw with this argument though. Couldn’t the same be said of murder? Murder is a choice and yet it is not legal. Just a thought.

  17. We agree on most everything here. I agree with you on the war issue. I hate it and if I had known that Bush was going to take us down this path I would have never voted for him. In 2004 I voted Kerry on the war issue alone.

    However, I see this particular election as different. There is FAR more at play here then the war or the economy. I’m not one to get all wrapped up in the “associations” and all that. That’s just politics; however, I am very concerned about an Obama Presidency. Something isn’t right and I don’t believe we have all the information on this guy yet. Let him prove himself and run in the next election.

    The abortion issue is one of the reasons I am not voting for him. However, it is not the only reason.

    Something is in the wind Donny. I am just staying clear of anything Obama. I supported the guy at one time… even flew his banners on pages I run. I pulled them about 4 months ago. I know McCain is far from perfect. I know he will most likely be a Bush Clone. I hate that, but I fear Obama more then I fear McCain. Sad place our Country is in when one can make a statement like that.

  18. We agree on most everything here. I agree with you on the war issue. I hate it and if I had known that Bush was going to take us down this path I would have never voted for him. In 2004 I voted Kerry on the war issue alone.

    However, I see this particular election as different. There is FAR more at play here then the war or the economy. I’m not one to get all wrapped up in the “associations” and all that. That’s just politics; however, I am very concerned about an Obama Presidency. Something isn’t right and I don’t believe we have all the information on this guy yet. Let him prove himself and run in the next election.

    The abortion issue is one of the reasons I am not voting for him. However, it is not the only reason.

    Something is in the wind Donny. I am just staying clear of anything Obama. I supported the guy at one time… even flew his banners on pages I run. I pulled them about 4 months ago. I know McCain is far from perfect. I know he will most likely be a Bush Clone. I hate that, but I fear Obama more then I fear McCain. Sad place our Country is in when one can make a statement like that.

  19. Yes, the same can be said of murder, John. As I said in the post, Obama has professed the opinion that those who commit this particular crime (abortion) should not face consequences. Our Justice system sometimes makes the same decision when it comes to murder: some murders are “justified”, such as those committed in self-defense.

    Obama seems to be amongst the millions who think a fetus isn’t human until it has a soul. That’s not a new idea. For centuries there have been people who have felt the same. Since they don’t see the fetus as “human” they don’t think a murder has been committed, and therefore don’t feel punishment is deserved.

    I disagree.

    But Obama’s opinions do not make him a murderer, just like it doesn’t make a murderer of a judge when he or she let’s off a person who has taken another life.

  20. Yes, the same can be said of murder, John. As I said in the post, Obama has professed the opinion that those who commit this particular crime (abortion) should not face consequences. Our Justice system sometimes makes the same decision when it comes to murder: some murders are “justified”, such as those committed in self-defense.

    Obama seems to be amongst the millions who think a fetus isn’t human until it has a soul. That’s not a new idea. For centuries there have been people who have felt the same. Since they don’t see the fetus as “human” they don’t think a murder has been committed, and therefore don’t feel punishment is deserved.

    I disagree.

    But Obama’s opinions do not make him a murderer, just like it doesn’t make a murderer of a judge when he or she let’s off a person who has taken another life.

  21. Jeff,

    I, too, have started feeling that “something just isn’t right”, which is why I blogged a few days ago about not voting early.

    But I’m also not comfortable with John McCain, either. Not only his vote on the Iraqi war, but also the fact that he has changed a lot during this campaign. He has been known as a man who goes against his party when he feels the need to do so, but during this campaign he’s changed that and instead become a people pleaser. His decision to include Sarah Palin in his campaign is a perfect example: he chose a person he thought would get votes rather than someone who is actually qualified for the position (such as Mitt Romney, for example: I’d have no problem voting for a McCain/Romney ticket).

    So… is it going to be Republican politics as usual if he’s President, so that he can be re-elected? I don’t respect that.

    So I continue searching. It’s weird… moment by moment my thoughts are so back-and-forth. One minute I say to myself “I’m voting for Obama!” and the next I envision myself instead voting for McCain.

    I won’t know who I’m voting for until I actually do it, I guess… and then I’ll second guess myself no doubt.

  22. Jeff,

    I, too, have started feeling that “something just isn’t right”, which is why I blogged a few days ago about not voting early.

    But I’m also not comfortable with John McCain, either. Not only his vote on the Iraqi war, but also the fact that he has changed a lot during this campaign. He has been known as a man who goes against his party when he feels the need to do so, but during this campaign he’s changed that and instead become a people pleaser. His decision to include Sarah Palin in his campaign is a perfect example: he chose a person he thought would get votes rather than someone who is actually qualified for the position (such as Mitt Romney, for example: I’d have no problem voting for a McCain/Romney ticket).

    So… is it going to be Republican politics as usual if he’s President, so that he can be re-elected? I don’t respect that.

    So I continue searching. It’s weird… moment by moment my thoughts are so back-and-forth. One minute I say to myself “I’m voting for Obama!” and the next I envision myself instead voting for McCain.

    I won’t know who I’m voting for until I actually do it, I guess… and then I’ll second guess myself no doubt.

  23. Donny, of course God isn’t a “murderer”. God gave Satan dominion over the earth and in that act was born the sinful nature we were all born with. (Genesis 1:26). Satan seeks to steal, kill and destroy; John 10:10. But we have this hope: John 16, 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”.

    We are not at war with God. Satan is our enemy. God is not in the abortion business, but you can bet that Satan is the Chairmen of the Board.

    I believe we are approaching the day when God says: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and calls us home. I truly believe that He sill be putting a stop to this.

  24. Donny, of course God isn’t a “murderer”. God gave Satan dominion over the earth and in that act was born the sinful nature we were all born with. (Genesis 1:26). Satan seeks to steal, kill and destroy; John 10:10. But we have this hope: John 16, 33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”.

    We are not at war with God. Satan is our enemy. God is not in the abortion business, but you can bet that Satan is the Chairmen of the Board.

    I believe we are approaching the day when God says: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and calls us home. I truly believe that He sill be putting a stop to this.

  25. alot of good points donny, as always. i completely agree with you that you cannot legislate morality and the highest ideal is the heart change. but i disagree that the american military purposely ORDERS the annihilation of innocent iraqis therefore putting all of this “blood” on our hands, similar to abortion. most of the time when you watch the news, its the suicide-bomber insurgents who are the ones killing them, their own people. if we are responsible for deaths, its clearly accidental. we have no qualm with the iraqi people themselves and we arent waging genocide on them. so, i dont think thats a good example to compare mccain and obama with.

    look, im not going to tell you who to vote for and i respect your decision with zero prejudice but we have a country to run as well. do you think outlawing drunk driving is legislating morality? alot of the times those drivers just do not care so someone had to do something about there carelessness. you may not EVER be able to change someones heart or play a part in that process because to change is up to the individual. but at the same time, laws must be upheld and people need to be protected. we are stewards of this country and though the ideal is to see a heart changed, alot of the times that does not happen. pro choice is sort of like allowing someone the “choice” to drive drunk, but legally. we cant get callous to the idea of abortion because its ALREADY legal. and its very easy to do that. we need to call it what it is. and id say from my own experience, and this addresses jeff’s letter as well, that all of the women ive met whove had abortions, they werent broken or desperate and thats because theyve had multiple abortions due to a careless lifestyle. im not saying there are not desperate women out there, which there is, but there are also alot of careless, heartless women as well. careless as the drunk driver

    heres a quote from “jane roe” herself:

    “It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the “right” to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, “Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn’t have been possible.” Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes.”

    now, thats the kind of choice we should not allow. thats called enabling.

  26. alot of good points donny, as always. i completely agree with you that you cannot legislate morality and the highest ideal is the heart change. but i disagree that the american military purposely ORDERS the annihilation of innocent iraqis therefore putting all of this “blood” on our hands, similar to abortion. most of the time when you watch the news, its the suicide-bomber insurgents who are the ones killing them, their own people. if we are responsible for deaths, its clearly accidental. we have no qualm with the iraqi people themselves and we arent waging genocide on them. so, i dont think thats a good example to compare mccain and obama with.

    look, im not going to tell you who to vote for and i respect your decision with zero prejudice but we have a country to run as well. do you think outlawing drunk driving is legislating morality? alot of the times those drivers just do not care so someone had to do something about there carelessness. you may not EVER be able to change someones heart or play a part in that process because to change is up to the individual. but at the same time, laws must be upheld and people need to be protected. we are stewards of this country and though the ideal is to see a heart changed, alot of the times that does not happen. pro choice is sort of like allowing someone the “choice” to drive drunk, but legally. we cant get callous to the idea of abortion because its ALREADY legal. and its very easy to do that. we need to call it what it is. and id say from my own experience, and this addresses jeff’s letter as well, that all of the women ive met whove had abortions, they werent broken or desperate and thats because theyve had multiple abortions due to a careless lifestyle. im not saying there are not desperate women out there, which there is, but there are also alot of careless, heartless women as well. careless as the drunk driver

    heres a quote from “jane roe” herself:

    “It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the “right” to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, “Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn’t have been possible.” Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes.”

    now, thats the kind of choice we should not allow. thats called enabling.

  27. Again, I say:

    Sounds like you can support your choice to vote for Obama quite well, Donny. The abortion issue is not the primary reason why I am not voting for him–I have voted for democrats in the past. To be painfully honest, I do not consider myself a very political person. I vote from my gut. And I can completely understand why some people would want to criticize me for admitting that, but… “oh, well.”

    I think you know who you should vote for. And I still wonder–since you can so logically and intelligently state your view in a detailed blog–why you would have any doubts at this point. You’re a good man. Go out and do what you feel is right.

  28. Again, I say:

    Sounds like you can support your choice to vote for Obama quite well, Donny. The abortion issue is not the primary reason why I am not voting for him–I have voted for democrats in the past. To be painfully honest, I do not consider myself a very political person. I vote from my gut. And I can completely understand why some people would want to criticize me for admitting that, but… “oh, well.”

    I think you know who you should vote for. And I still wonder–since you can so logically and intelligently state your view in a detailed blog–why you would have any doubts at this point. You’re a good man. Go out and do what you feel is right.

  29. And so, John (r or l), will Senator McCain be receiving your vote based on his opinions on abortion, or because of other reasons?

    My point with this thread is that Obama is not a baby killer because of his opinions on this issue. I’m tired of hearing scare mongering by Christians. It’s pathetic. Barack Obama has openly stated that Jesus Christ is his Savior, even though that profession might offend voters of different faith.

    If you like McCain’s economic policies better than Obama’s, if you think he’s more experienced and in a better position to lead, or any number of other reasons, I can respect that.

    But it is my opinion that those who vote for him simply because he states Roe v Wade was a “flawed decision” (yet also states that any nominees he makes to the Supreme Court won’t have to agree with him on that) are making an inexcusably ignorant voting decision. There needs to be more depth, in my opinion.

  30. And so, John (r or l), will Senator McCain be receiving your vote based on his opinions on abortion, or because of other reasons?

    My point with this thread is that Obama is not a baby killer because of his opinions on this issue. I’m tired of hearing scare mongering by Christians. It’s pathetic. Barack Obama has openly stated that Jesus Christ is his Savior, even though that profession might offend voters of different faith.

    If you like McCain’s economic policies better than Obama’s, if you think he’s more experienced and in a better position to lead, or any number of other reasons, I can respect that.

    But it is my opinion that those who vote for him simply because he states Roe v Wade was a “flawed decision” (yet also states that any nominees he makes to the Supreme Court won’t have to agree with him on that) are making an inexcusably ignorant voting decision. There needs to be more depth, in my opinion.

  31. I agree on the Palin thing as well. Just a move to get votes. She clearly isnt the best cloice. Romney, Huckabee, either one would have helped his cause and shown more stablity.

    When its said I done, in my mind, something far bigger is up if Obama is our next President. Far bigger then the abortion issue. Like you, I cant put a finger on it, but im confident something bigger is going on there.

    Im voting for McCain. He is proven, tried and tested. While I dont agree with him on everything. We do know what we are getting. With Obama, I dont think we have a clue on what is in that package.

  32. I agree on the Palin thing as well. Just a move to get votes. She clearly isnt the best cloice. Romney, Huckabee, either one would have helped his cause and shown more stablity.

    When its said I done, in my mind, something far bigger is up if Obama is our next President. Far bigger then the abortion issue. Like you, I cant put a finger on it, but im confident something bigger is going on there.

    Im voting for McCain. He is proven, tried and tested. While I dont agree with him on everything. We do know what we are getting. With Obama, I dont think we have a clue on what is in that package.

  33. Celeste, gut feeling is what it just might come down to for me too.

    * My “intellect” tells me that Obama would be a better choice.

    * My “hope” tells me Obama is a better choice.

    * Sarah Palin tells me to vote for Obama (Sarah as Pres is SCARY).

    * But, to be honest, my GUT tells me to punch the card for John McCain.

  34. Celeste, gut feeling is what it just might come down to for me too.

    * My “intellect” tells me that Obama would be a better choice.

    * My “hope” tells me Obama is a better choice.

    * Sarah Palin tells me to vote for Obama (Sarah as Pres is SCARY).

    * But, to be honest, my GUT tells me to punch the card for John McCain.

  35. Donny,
    You make some very good points in this blog. Of course, the “heart cure” is always the best but not everyone accepts the “heart cure” If people don’t accept it do we change the laws to accomodate? If would be better if drug addicts would accept Jesus and have their hearts made whole and make a choice to become free of that addiction, but many won’t, so should we therefore make drugs legal? Just a thought.

    If everyone truly accepted the”Heart Cure” with all of there being, would we even need laws? The fact that Obama did not vote to ban partial birth abortion gives me cause for concern about his heart. I know it was supposedly because it didn’t contain a clause about protection for the mother or something but to me that seems like a cop out. How often does that happen and how far do you take that? It just seems there is always some excuse to let the mother make her “choice.”

    I agree wholeheartedly that we should “unite as one body in our efforts to offer the cure to our country’s heart condition” as you said in your blog.

    Anyway, I guess I’m voting for McCain not just because of the abortion issue but others as well. I wish however, there were more viable choices. All anyone can do is vote their convictions which I am sure you will do. Our hope is in the goodness of God and not in any man. As my mom would say “something will work out.”

    Blessings to you.

  36. Donny,
    You make some very good points in this blog. Of course, the “heart cure” is always the best but not everyone accepts the “heart cure” If people don’t accept it do we change the laws to accomodate? If would be better if drug addicts would accept Jesus and have their hearts made whole and make a choice to become free of that addiction, but many won’t, so should we therefore make drugs legal? Just a thought.

    If everyone truly accepted the”Heart Cure” with all of there being, would we even need laws? The fact that Obama did not vote to ban partial birth abortion gives me cause for concern about his heart. I know it was supposedly because it didn’t contain a clause about protection for the mother or something but to me that seems like a cop out. How often does that happen and how far do you take that? It just seems there is always some excuse to let the mother make her “choice.”

    I agree wholeheartedly that we should “unite as one body in our efforts to offer the cure to our country’s heart condition” as you said in your blog.

    Anyway, I guess I’m voting for McCain not just because of the abortion issue but others as well. I wish however, there were more viable choices. All anyone can do is vote their convictions which I am sure you will do. Our hope is in the goodness of God and not in any man. As my mom would say “something will work out.”

    Blessings to you.

  37. no, it isnt the abortion thing alone. although thats alot of it but at the same time that isnt the ONLY issue thats important and i realize that. i cant really put words to it, but as someone posted above and also in jeff’s last post, theres something in my gut that i fear more with obama than mccain. and theres just something in the air. until someone posted it, i didnt really know how to describe it. so in those regards, id rather take my gamble with mccain.

    obama is basically an ACLU lawyer, thats what civil rights lawyer means nowadays, who went on to become a senator. now the idea of electing that and giving him possibly a super majority in the senate and the house leaves plenty for the imagination in as far as the potential to change the cultural landscape of this country. there are alot of political thinkers who are influenced by the way europe operates. i feel very strongly that obama is along those lines.

    donny we are all fear mongers in this election, choosing between what we are most afraid of happening.

  38. no, it isnt the abortion thing alone. although thats alot of it but at the same time that isnt the ONLY issue thats important and i realize that. i cant really put words to it, but as someone posted above and also in jeff’s last post, theres something in my gut that i fear more with obama than mccain. and theres just something in the air. until someone posted it, i didnt really know how to describe it. so in those regards, id rather take my gamble with mccain.

    obama is basically an ACLU lawyer, thats what civil rights lawyer means nowadays, who went on to become a senator. now the idea of electing that and giving him possibly a super majority in the senate and the house leaves plenty for the imagination in as far as the potential to change the cultural landscape of this country. there are alot of political thinkers who are influenced by the way europe operates. i feel very strongly that obama is along those lines.

    donny we are all fear mongers in this election, choosing between what we are most afraid of happening.

  39. and i think the idea you are round-a-bout implying about obama is this sort of non-judgmental, compassionate allowance for human free-will to do its thing. i see that quality in you donny but not in someone who goes out of his way to planned parenthood conferences as the starring speaker. thats not a compassionate respect for free-will, thats an extreme error in judgement. one of my intellectual heroes, dr john lennox who happens to be a christian, never at any time wishes to force an atheist to believe as he does, in turn, compassionately respecting his/her right to believe as they wish. i admire that, but at the same time you dont see lennox going out of his way promoting peter singers materialist/atheist ideas that newborn babies have no more value than pigs.

  40. and i think the idea you are round-a-bout implying about obama is this sort of non-judgmental, compassionate allowance for human free-will to do its thing. i see that quality in you donny but not in someone who goes out of his way to planned parenthood conferences as the starring speaker. thats not a compassionate respect for free-will, thats an extreme error in judgement. one of my intellectual heroes, dr john lennox who happens to be a christian, never at any time wishes to force an atheist to believe as he does, in turn, compassionately respecting his/her right to believe as they wish. i admire that, but at the same time you dont see lennox going out of his way promoting peter singers materialist/atheist ideas that newborn babies have no more value than pigs.

  41. And what about after the child goes through his or her hell of not being wanted?
    Children lose their value as pawns as soon as they are of age to be a pawn for another kind of exploitation.
    Then the government says, you are valued. Greetings! But if you are damaged mentally from the army, not just the war, mind you but shi_you are forced to crawl around in and with people you have nothing in common with. It’s their music forced on everyone else, their loud mouths, critical and filled with curse words and a general disrespect for human beings in general. the first sergeant is first only inh his ability to threaten and cut you down.
    Then, what use is the human for the church but contribution from his wallet? Who cares for him or her then? Old age is worse. Old people here are treated like animals, used and victimized by everyone from the laundry lady to the house cleaner. If you complain they say you are crazy. So get off yor high horse. Christianity isn’t any better than any other organization.. Save those babys for you christian schools and prepare them to go off to war, then to work in your stupid factories that make stupid things for stupid people to buy.
    We are now going to pay for the excesses that began with that eitist, alzheimer ridden Reagan, who took the controls off the banking system for his pals and cronies. the banks ARE 100 TRILLION IN DEBT and there will be no bail out on this one.These are the derivitive investments that think the people can bail them out on again. You my Christian friend, will soon wonder how you will feed your family, let alone more and more mouths to feed out in the world.

    After the R party put the screws to the people again, they come right back for more and can ‘t wait to get another one in the white house–God help our children-and their children. We have made so many world enemies that we will stand alone when the derivitive melt-dow occurs.

    When we have a chance, finally to put a decent and qualified human being in office, it’s the low road we choose. At a time when we need the best and brightest, racisim wins and an old man and a trailer trash, grubby opportunist have a good chance of winning this election.
    Just what we needed. More red and blue and the red white and blue be dammed.

  42. And what about after the child goes through his or her hell of not being wanted?
    Children lose their value as pawns as soon as they are of age to be a pawn for another kind of exploitation.
    Then the government says, you are valued. Greetings! But if you are damaged mentally from the army, not just the war, mind you but shi_you are forced to crawl around in and with people you have nothing in common with. It’s their music forced on everyone else, their loud mouths, critical and filled with curse words and a general disrespect for human beings in general. the first sergeant is first only inh his ability to threaten and cut you down.
    Then, what use is the human for the church but contribution from his wallet? Who cares for him or her then? Old age is worse. Old people here are treated like animals, used and victimized by everyone from the laundry lady to the house cleaner. If you complain they say you are crazy. So get off yor high horse. Christianity isn’t any better than any other organization.. Save those babys for you christian schools and prepare them to go off to war, then to work in your stupid factories that make stupid things for stupid people to buy.
    We are now going to pay for the excesses that began with that eitist, alzheimer ridden Reagan, who took the controls off the banking system for his pals and cronies. the banks ARE 100 TRILLION IN DEBT and there will be no bail out on this one.These are the derivitive investments that think the people can bail them out on again. You my Christian friend, will soon wonder how you will feed your family, let alone more and more mouths to feed out in the world.

    After the R party put the screws to the people again, they come right back for more and can ‘t wait to get another one in the white house–God help our children-and their children. We have made so many world enemies that we will stand alone when the derivitive melt-dow occurs.

    When we have a chance, finally to put a decent and qualified human being in office, it’s the low road we choose. At a time when we need the best and brightest, racisim wins and an old man and a trailer trash, grubby opportunist have a good chance of winning this election.
    Just what we needed. More red and blue and the red white and blue be dammed.

  43. Apparently Barack Obama studied the techniques of Saul Alinsky? The founder of community organizing and the writer of “Rules for Radicals,” a book he dedicated to Lucifer???????
    Yikes.

  44. Apparently Barack Obama studied the techniques of Saul Alinsky? The founder of community organizing and the writer of “Rules for Radicals,” a book he dedicated to Lucifer???????
    Yikes.

  45. Nancy,

    I’ve read (studied) the works of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens… men who don’t believe God even exists.

    Is that a “yikes” too?

  46. Nancy,

    I’ve read (studied) the works of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens… men who don’t believe God even exists.

    Is that a “yikes” too?

  47. I remember weeping the night that Bill Clinton was elected into office. With such an ungodly man in the White House, I knew for sure that our country now really was going to hell in a hand basket and that he was going to take away all my rights as a Christian. In 2004, I reluctantly voted for George Bush. I voted for him mainly for the sake of our nation’s security, and because of the Supreme Ct justices he would likely appoint. I had doubts about him, but in my gut he seemed the safest of the candidates.

    It’s interesting now in retrospect — Clinton, while he certainly embarrassed himself and his family during his presidency, did not destroy the US nearly like I thought he would. On the other hand, I personally am as embarrassed by George Bush as I have been by any self-proclaimed Christian. I pity him for the web of lies he has told and sold to us the American people. My husband and I just watched a PBS documentary about the way he and Cheney handled/manipulated the whole torture issue. All facts — no Michael Moore stuff. Talk about cover up — the men are war criminals, plain and simple. How will God’s judgment be leveled at their deeds?

    The point is, we are broken and fallible humans. While most gut instincts hold some element of truth in their basis, that doesn’t alone make them true and reliable. My instincts, while they may be on target at times, will always be subject to my experiences, my fears, my prejudices, what I read that morning, etc. etc. While they serve us well at times, I don’t think a decision such as this one should boil down to that, no matter who you’re voting for.

    With all the conspiracy theories flying around these days, it is easy to feel “something just isn’t right with Obama.” Maybe in the end, that will even turn out to be right. If so, I have to remember that God is still on the throne. He is the only One who truly knows and is the Truth. If it turns out that Obama is the spawn of Satan as some would believe, or even the anti-Christ, then God already knows that and has known it, actually written it into history, from since before the beginning of time. I don’t believe His intent is for us to live in fear and go around promoting fear or using scare tactics either.

    When I read the comments on your page, Ms. Goldfarb, I hear more than “just the facts” — I hear ranting and raving. If you have read Obama’s “Dreams” book, you know that the part you quoted is completely taken out of context and misrepresentative of what he is trying to communicate. After even that one point, how am I supposed to find you credible? Instead you sound just like any other fear monger. (Fear mongers tend to paint the world in very black and white terms — the bad guys are the “monsters” and the good guys are the heroes — or the evangelicals, if you’re a Christian. Yet being in ministry where I see all sides of people, I have found people are rarely that simple.) If Obama is really as scary as you propose, I don’t think you have to add in the misleading stuff — the truth can speak for itself. It sounds so like the “sound the alarm” type of tactics Bush has employed his entire presidency. Ironic considering he’s turned out to be our most dangerous president yet. I think Americans are tired of being “bullied” by the “truth” — I, for one, am more likely to listen when people communicate rationally and let the truth stand for itself.

    Donny, I really appreciate all the discussions you have opened up during this election, and how you have been real with both your thoughts and questions. You’ve set a good example of someone who is searching out answers, but in a rational way. That said, on Tuesday, I really believe that God is even less concerned with who you choose than with your choice to continue to trust in Him. Blessings, and sorry this was so long!

  48. I remember weeping the night that Bill Clinton was elected into office. With such an ungodly man in the White House, I knew for sure that our country now really was going to hell in a hand basket and that he was going to take away all my rights as a Christian. In 2004, I reluctantly voted for George Bush. I voted for him mainly for the sake of our nation’s security, and because of the Supreme Ct justices he would likely appoint. I had doubts about him, but in my gut he seemed the safest of the candidates.

    It’s interesting now in retrospect — Clinton, while he certainly embarrassed himself and his family during his presidency, did not destroy the US nearly like I thought he would. On the other hand, I personally am as embarrassed by George Bush as I have been by any self-proclaimed Christian. I pity him for the web of lies he has told and sold to us the American people. My husband and I just watched a PBS documentary about the way he and Cheney handled/manipulated the whole torture issue. All facts — no Michael Moore stuff. Talk about cover up — the men are war criminals, plain and simple. How will God’s judgment be leveled at their deeds?

    The point is, we are broken and fallible humans. While most gut instincts hold some element of truth in their basis, that doesn’t alone make them true and reliable. My instincts, while they may be on target at times, will always be subject to my experiences, my fears, my prejudices, what I read that morning, etc. etc. While they serve us well at times, I don’t think a decision such as this one should boil down to that, no matter who you’re voting for.

    With all the conspiracy theories flying around these days, it is easy to feel “something just isn’t right with Obama.” Maybe in the end, that will even turn out to be right. If so, I have to remember that God is still on the throne. He is the only One who truly knows and is the Truth. If it turns out that Obama is the spawn of Satan as some would believe, or even the anti-Christ, then God already knows that and has known it, actually written it into history, from since before the beginning of time. I don’t believe His intent is for us to live in fear and go around promoting fear or using scare tactics either.

    When I read the comments on your page, Ms. Goldfarb, I hear more than “just the facts” — I hear ranting and raving. If you have read Obama’s “Dreams” book, you know that the part you quoted is completely taken out of context and misrepresentative of what he is trying to communicate. After even that one point, how am I supposed to find you credible? Instead you sound just like any other fear monger. (Fear mongers tend to paint the world in very black and white terms — the bad guys are the “monsters” and the good guys are the heroes — or the evangelicals, if you’re a Christian. Yet being in ministry where I see all sides of people, I have found people are rarely that simple.) If Obama is really as scary as you propose, I don’t think you have to add in the misleading stuff — the truth can speak for itself. It sounds so like the “sound the alarm” type of tactics Bush has employed his entire presidency. Ironic considering he’s turned out to be our most dangerous president yet. I think Americans are tired of being “bullied” by the “truth” — I, for one, am more likely to listen when people communicate rationally and let the truth stand for itself.

    Donny, I really appreciate all the discussions you have opened up during this election, and how you have been real with both your thoughts and questions. You’ve set a good example of someone who is searching out answers, but in a rational way. That said, on Tuesday, I really believe that God is even less concerned with who you choose than with your choice to continue to trust in Him. Blessings, and sorry this was so long!

  49. Donny,
    You make some very good points in this blog. Of course, the “heart cure” is always the best but not everyone accepts the “heart cure” If people don’t accept it do we change the laws to accomodate? If would be better if drug addicts would accept Jesus and have their hearts made whole and make a choice to become free of that addiction, but many won’t, so should we therefore make drugs legal? Just a thought.

    If everyone truly accepted the”Heart Cure” with all of there being, would we even need laws?

    For how long have drugs been illegal? Many of the drugs used now never existed during the time of Jesus. We pass laws like there is no tomorrow. But the fact of the matter is that most of these things that have come to exist wouldn’t exist if the Church was doing its job. Drug use is an attempt to fill the void where Jesus should be. If we loved people the way we should and showed them Jesus in skin, instead of sitting around watching television and becoming just as self absorbed as any other group of people, there wouldn’t be so many social problems.

    If the divorce rate in church wasn’t just as high as the divorce rate outside the church, and families were really valued the way we claim to value them with our mouths, there wouldn’t be so many social problems.

    If those who picket outside abortion clinics instead held signs saying, “I’ll take your child. I’ll feed and clothe you while you go through pregnancy. I’ll give you a place to live. Don’t be scared. I’m here for you.” there wouldn’t be so many abortions.

    Jesus negates the need for laws. He said so himself. I believe Him.

    Yeah, we have laws. More all the time. Apparently our law makers need to keep making laws to justify their position. By just accepting this, we encourage them. We dumb people down by making rules about every aspect of how they should live their lives, rather than letting them figure it out for themselves. People (in general) live up to the standards we expect of them, just like children.

    Sure, some laws are necessary. SOME being the key word.

    The fact that Obama did not vote to ban partial birth abortion gives me cause for concern about his heart. I know it was supposedly because it didn’t contain a clause about protection for the mother or something but to me that seems like a cop out. How often does that happen and how far do you take that? It just seems there is always some excuse to let the mother make her “choice.”

    I assume you’re referring to the Born Alive issue that is so often discussed when referring to Barack Obama and abortion. I choose to accept his explanation: laws already exist that compels doctors to care for babies born alive… it’s called the Hippocratic Oath. Doctors MUST care for those who need care. A law wasn’t necessary to stipulate this, and it was loaded with (or lacked) other aspects he didn’t find acceptable.

    But again… John McCain, who champions of Pro Life hold up as the hope of overturning Roe v Wade, has publicly stated that his appointments to the Supreme Court, should he become our next President, will not face a litmus test of holding his views of abortion. He admitted this on live national television. What he’s telling us is that his administration will not overturn Roe v Wade, just like the more than 30 years of Republican Presidential rule before him since Roe v Wade was ruled upon. That being the case, it doesn’t really matter how he feels about it… he’s not going to do anything.

    The point of this blog post, however, was to demonstrate that Obama is NOT a baby killer.

  50. Donny,
    You make some very good points in this blog. Of course, the “heart cure” is always the best but not everyone accepts the “heart cure” If people don’t accept it do we change the laws to accomodate? If would be better if drug addicts would accept Jesus and have their hearts made whole and make a choice to become free of that addiction, but many won’t, so should we therefore make drugs legal? Just a thought.

    If everyone truly accepted the”Heart Cure” with all of there being, would we even need laws?

    For how long have drugs been illegal? Many of the drugs used now never existed during the time of Jesus. We pass laws like there is no tomorrow. But the fact of the matter is that most of these things that have come to exist wouldn’t exist if the Church was doing its job. Drug use is an attempt to fill the void where Jesus should be. If we loved people the way we should and showed them Jesus in skin, instead of sitting around watching television and becoming just as self absorbed as any other group of people, there wouldn’t be so many social problems.

    If the divorce rate in church wasn’t just as high as the divorce rate outside the church, and families were really valued the way we claim to value them with our mouths, there wouldn’t be so many social problems.

    If those who picket outside abortion clinics instead held signs saying, “I’ll take your child. I’ll feed and clothe you while you go through pregnancy. I’ll give you a place to live. Don’t be scared. I’m here for you.” there wouldn’t be so many abortions.

    Jesus negates the need for laws. He said so himself. I believe Him.

    Yeah, we have laws. More all the time. Apparently our law makers need to keep making laws to justify their position. By just accepting this, we encourage them. We dumb people down by making rules about every aspect of how they should live their lives, rather than letting them figure it out for themselves. People (in general) live up to the standards we expect of them, just like children.

    Sure, some laws are necessary. SOME being the key word.

    The fact that Obama did not vote to ban partial birth abortion gives me cause for concern about his heart. I know it was supposedly because it didn’t contain a clause about protection for the mother or something but to me that seems like a cop out. How often does that happen and how far do you take that? It just seems there is always some excuse to let the mother make her “choice.”

    I assume you’re referring to the Born Alive issue that is so often discussed when referring to Barack Obama and abortion. I choose to accept his explanation: laws already exist that compels doctors to care for babies born alive… it’s called the Hippocratic Oath. Doctors MUST care for those who need care. A law wasn’t necessary to stipulate this, and it was loaded with (or lacked) other aspects he didn’t find acceptable.

    But again… John McCain, who champions of Pro Life hold up as the hope of overturning Roe v Wade, has publicly stated that his appointments to the Supreme Court, should he become our next President, will not face a litmus test of holding his views of abortion. He admitted this on live national television. What he’s telling us is that his administration will not overturn Roe v Wade, just like the more than 30 years of Republican Presidential rule before him since Roe v Wade was ruled upon. That being the case, it doesn’t really matter how he feels about it… he’s not going to do anything.

    The point of this blog post, however, was to demonstrate that Obama is NOT a baby killer.

  51. I have to be honest. I reject free-will as even possible in this life. Like it or not, we are all prone towards the exact opposite of what is good, that is, we are prone towards doing evil. And we are prone towards that because we are slaves to sin, as both Jesus and St. Paul point out. To believe otherwise is to actually not be a Christian, since one has already disowned the messengers of Christ and thereby the one who sent them.

    We are free to some extent, this is true, in matters of daily life, but these are even skewed by our being prone to sin. And to blame God for the fact that we are prone to sin is stupidity as well, since it is we who share with the first man, Adam himself, the original guilt that we all bear and that infects not our bodies, but our souls.

    It is natural for the fallen, sinful and wicked mankind to try and put himself/herself in God’s place, in fact to become his/her own little god, and to think himself/herself able to judge his/her creator and to decide what god he/she will worship. But all this is, in reality, is self-deification, thus proving that the story of Genesis 3 is true and we are all in fact guilty, for we all want to be like god – in fact to be god.

    We want to think we are free and independent of God, that we don’t depend on him for every movement and every breath, though “in him we live and move and have our being.”

    And so, in doing this, we show that we are enslaved to this rebellion, unable to be free of it, unable to obey willingly, but that only by the death of the will that is enslaved to sin can any true freedom be obtained. This is why we must do something that we cannot do of ourselves – “deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow” the Incarnate God himself.

    But we want explanations for why God allows this or that, things that are above or beyond us, and we challenge that God could be God if he did things we don’t think of as fair or right – thus judging God and proving our guilt all the more. We say that if man is responsible apart from some supposed “free (neutral) will,” God has no right to judge him. But with our words we judge God, and so condemn ourselves, and prove our slavery all the more.

    Abortion is rightly a matter of the heart, and is as common as nearly every other idea throughout the history of man. The ancient Jews used to through their infant children while they were still breathing into the fires inside the idol Molech, and the Roman women would drink a potion to dispose of the unwanted child. In every civilization around the globe, the sacrifice of children or infanticide in some form has always been common, and disposing of the unwanted children has also been more the norm than the exception, with the exception being within historical Christianity, because historic Christianity understood that human opinions were irrelevant and we were bound to repent of our thoughts and live by the ways and thoughts of God.

    We were to do so because of the love God first showed us by becoming one of us in the man Jesus Christ, who took the place of judgement on Calvary’s Tree, and then overcame our human weakness and was the exception to the rule in his glorious resurrection. He, who is the firstfruits from the grave, is where their hope and the hope of all men resides, but not apart from their repentance of their thoughts, words, and deeds that run contrary to the ways of the creator.

    They did not do such things such as abortion and infanticide, but instead spared the unwanted children (which is how orphanages came into exstance), for they knew that abortion and other practices like it were seen with the greatest sickening in the heart of the Almighty, who judges the hearts and ways of men. They knew that those who do such things condemn themselves and bring about many curses upon themsleves, both in this life and in the next, as their slavery to sin is proven all the more and they grow further and futher from their creator, becoming less human by the moment and by the day, so that the only thing that is left of their humanity is their bodies, which contain worthless and inhuman souls.

    For how can a person be human who lives not according to the ways of the only man who maintained the Image of God perfectly: Jesus Christ? No, those who do such detestable and wicked evils, who “are wise in their own eyes” are rightly called by the Lord “white washed tombs.” And some don’t even bother to be white washed! But they are dead, so much enslaved to sin that their is no life to speak of, and they cannot choose their path unless they are freed by the power of God – yes, his very Word that brings to be what is not, and casts out of existance what is.

    Do not condemn or question the Creator because he allows the wicked to prove their guilt, and so proving the greatness and the wisdom of his final judgements upon them! For in doing so, we are not proving ourselves wise but foolish. No, condemn the foolish, those who cannot see what is right before their eyes, what is self-evident but what their wickedness does not allow them to see – the Creator who stands in their midst and who grants to all in his mercy life despite their wickedness, being patient with them that none might perish but instead might see their guilt and repent.

    For wickedness leads men to deceive themselves and the ignoant into thinking that there is a problem with what the true God has revealed, and in fact in the worship of our race seeks to commingle the Truth with lies, and then say that the Truth is in error. This is an abomination and evil ,and is the ways of the wisdom of men, but is not of the Wisdom that is from Above.

    Our institutions in their arrogance have become places where foolishness reigns, and those places that are the most prestigious are the centers of the proclamation of foolishness.

    For had they considered the evidence before them, these who are wise in the eyes of the wicked would not be condemned and condemning themselves. Such is the wisdom of men, which evidences that there is no freedom in their wills, for they with all their intelligence cannot do anything but love what is false and hate what is good, thus “calling evill good and good evil”.

    So Donny, after all is said and done, there is nothing that can be done but that men abandon any credit for anything in this life, and instead find themselves wholly and utterly dependent on their Creator for every breath, every aspect of their being, for their salvation, and for their restoration to true humanity.

  52. I have to be honest. I reject free-will as even possible in this life. Like it or not, we are all prone towards the exact opposite of what is good, that is, we are prone towards doing evil. And we are prone towards that because we are slaves to sin, as both Jesus and St. Paul point out. To believe otherwise is to actually not be a Christian, since one has already disowned the messengers of Christ and thereby the one who sent them.

    We are free to some extent, this is true, in matters of daily life, but these are even skewed by our being prone to sin. And to blame God for the fact that we are prone to sin is stupidity as well, since it is we who share with the first man, Adam himself, the original guilt that we all bear and that infects not our bodies, but our souls.

    It is natural for the fallen, sinful and wicked mankind to try and put himself/herself in God’s place, in fact to become his/her own little god, and to think himself/herself able to judge his/her creator and to decide what god he/she will worship. But all this is, in reality, is self-deification, thus proving that the story of Genesis 3 is true and we are all in fact guilty, for we all want to be like god – in fact to be god.

    We want to think we are free and independent of God, that we don’t depend on him for every movement and every breath, though “in him we live and move and have our being.”

    And so, in doing this, we show that we are enslaved to this rebellion, unable to be free of it, unable to obey willingly, but that only by the death of the will that is enslaved to sin can any true freedom be obtained. This is why we must do something that we cannot do of ourselves – “deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow” the Incarnate God himself.

    But we want explanations for why God allows this or that, things that are above or beyond us, and we challenge that God could be God if he did things we don’t think of as fair or right – thus judging God and proving our guilt all the more. We say that if man is responsible apart from some supposed “free (neutral) will,” God has no right to judge him. But with our words we judge God, and so condemn ourselves, and prove our slavery all the more.

    Abortion is rightly a matter of the heart, and is as common as nearly every other idea throughout the history of man. The ancient Jews used to through their infant children while they were still breathing into the fires inside the idol Molech, and the Roman women would drink a potion to dispose of the unwanted child. In every civilization around the globe, the sacrifice of children or infanticide in some form has always been common, and disposing of the unwanted children has also been more the norm than the exception, with the exception being within historical Christianity, because historic Christianity understood that human opinions were irrelevant and we were bound to repent of our thoughts and live by the ways and thoughts of God.

    We were to do so because of the love God first showed us by becoming one of us in the man Jesus Christ, who took the place of judgement on Calvary’s Tree, and then overcame our human weakness and was the exception to the rule in his glorious resurrection. He, who is the firstfruits from the grave, is where their hope and the hope of all men resides, but not apart from their repentance of their thoughts, words, and deeds that run contrary to the ways of the creator.

    They did not do such things such as abortion and infanticide, but instead spared the unwanted children (which is how orphanages came into exstance), for they knew that abortion and other practices like it were seen with the greatest sickening in the heart of the Almighty, who judges the hearts and ways of men. They knew that those who do such things condemn themselves and bring about many curses upon themsleves, both in this life and in the next, as their slavery to sin is proven all the more and they grow further and futher from their creator, becoming less human by the moment and by the day, so that the only thing that is left of their humanity is their bodies, which contain worthless and inhuman souls.

    For how can a person be human who lives not according to the ways of the only man who maintained the Image of God perfectly: Jesus Christ? No, those who do such detestable and wicked evils, who “are wise in their own eyes” are rightly called by the Lord “white washed tombs.” And some don’t even bother to be white washed! But they are dead, so much enslaved to sin that their is no life to speak of, and they cannot choose their path unless they are freed by the power of God – yes, his very Word that brings to be what is not, and casts out of existance what is.

    Do not condemn or question the Creator because he allows the wicked to prove their guilt, and so proving the greatness and the wisdom of his final judgements upon them! For in doing so, we are not proving ourselves wise but foolish. No, condemn the foolish, those who cannot see what is right before their eyes, what is self-evident but what their wickedness does not allow them to see – the Creator who stands in their midst and who grants to all in his mercy life despite their wickedness, being patient with them that none might perish but instead might see their guilt and repent.

    For wickedness leads men to deceive themselves and the ignoant into thinking that there is a problem with what the true God has revealed, and in fact in the worship of our race seeks to commingle the Truth with lies, and then say that the Truth is in error. This is an abomination and evil ,and is the ways of the wisdom of men, but is not of the Wisdom that is from Above.

    Our institutions in their arrogance have become places where foolishness reigns, and those places that are the most prestigious are the centers of the proclamation of foolishness.

    For had they considered the evidence before them, these who are wise in the eyes of the wicked would not be condemned and condemning themselves. Such is the wisdom of men, which evidences that there is no freedom in their wills, for they with all their intelligence cannot do anything but love what is false and hate what is good, thus “calling evill good and good evil”.

    So Donny, after all is said and done, there is nothing that can be done but that men abandon any credit for anything in this life, and instead find themselves wholly and utterly dependent on their Creator for every breath, every aspect of their being, for their salvation, and for their restoration to true humanity.

  53. Hey Donny. The question of God’s culpability in his creatures’ actions is one with a long history, isn’t it. It’s a great question.

    Out of curiosity, do you feel all abortions are murder, beginning at conception? Or just those after a central nervous system is developed, etc?

  54. Hey Donny. The question of God’s culpability in his creatures’ actions is one with a long history, isn’t it. It’s a great question.

    Out of curiosity, do you feel all abortions are murder, beginning at conception? Or just those after a central nervous system is developed, etc?

  55. Look at the story of Lazarus recorded in John 11. Jesus knew all about Lazarus’ condition and loved him. Yet, He allowed Lazarus to die. Jesus knew the end of the story, but he still wept after Lazarus died. We can have faith but still experience great pain and sorrow at the “loss of life” we see in front of us. Jesus came to destroy death. He knows the end of the story where Lazarus was raised from the dead. For Christians, death is nothing to fear. Jesus conquered it; when we think from a bigger standpoint, the death of a child is not the “end of the story”. We can have great sorrow over this loss of life, but we should also understand that earthly death is required and Jesus solved the permanent side of the problem.

    Shifting gears, let’s be careful not to be complacent. If a person witnesses an attempted murder, they generally have a moral responsibility to help the victim. Likewise, when a person knows a murder (or mass murders) are going to happen, there is a moral responsibility to make every effort to try to stop them. The first question man asked God is something like, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The rest of time gives us the clear answer that we are. We can debate about how much that means government-sponsored welfare or other ideas, but it seems pretty clear on abortion that once we accept the idea that an unborn child is human that we’re required to do everything we can (including how we vote) to protect that life.

    An example comes from WWII. During the Holocaust, was it sufficient justification for a member of the Nazi party to continue their membership and support of the government if they knew about the death camps? Unlike the Nazis at that time, we’re not coerced. We’re not forced to sacrifice our own lives to resist American legal death clinics. Voting for the institutions that support abortion violates our moral responsibility. In this case, while the conservatives are imperfect, the institutions that support abortion are strongly concentrated on the left and this includes Mr. Obama.

    When it comes to war, the intent is not to kill innocent people. In Iraq and Afghanistan, though it’s not possible to prove one way or the other, there’s a strong case to be made that more “innocent” lives were saved by the war than were lost by the war. Life doesn’t always give us a choice between 100% life and 100% death. Sometimes, it requires that we pick between some death and more death. Would it have been acceptable to bomb Auschwitz in WWII? That would have killed thousands of innocent people, but it would have slowed the death machine itself and possibly saved thousands more. Americans found mass graves in Iraq. It was well-known that people who could potentially stand up to Hussein frequently disappeared into thin air. Hussein’s son employed industrial plastic shredders to torture and kill people. Hussein gassed the Kurds. How’d he do that without chemical weapons? He had them, but they weren’t new ones or from an active program. However, they were lethal enough. Granted, death by an accident isn’t any less dead than intentional death, but there’s something to be said for intent. Are we, using the best knowledge that we have, working to save as many lives as we can or working to end them? Complacency is not an option.

    My position is that changing hearts is important, but changing the law is important, too. One of these does not come at the expense of the other. We have to try at least a two-pronged approach. While doing this, we need to understand that God is in control and that, with Christ, death is not permanent.

  56. Look at the story of Lazarus recorded in John 11. Jesus knew all about Lazarus’ condition and loved him. Yet, He allowed Lazarus to die. Jesus knew the end of the story, but he still wept after Lazarus died. We can have faith but still experience great pain and sorrow at the “loss of life” we see in front of us. Jesus came to destroy death. He knows the end of the story where Lazarus was raised from the dead. For Christians, death is nothing to fear. Jesus conquered it; when we think from a bigger standpoint, the death of a child is not the “end of the story”. We can have great sorrow over this loss of life, but we should also understand that earthly death is required and Jesus solved the permanent side of the problem.

    Shifting gears, let’s be careful not to be complacent. If a person witnesses an attempted murder, they generally have a moral responsibility to help the victim. Likewise, when a person knows a murder (or mass murders) are going to happen, there is a moral responsibility to make every effort to try to stop them. The first question man asked God is something like, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The rest of time gives us the clear answer that we are. We can debate about how much that means government-sponsored welfare or other ideas, but it seems pretty clear on abortion that once we accept the idea that an unborn child is human that we’re required to do everything we can (including how we vote) to protect that life.

    An example comes from WWII. During the Holocaust, was it sufficient justification for a member of the Nazi party to continue their membership and support of the government if they knew about the death camps? Unlike the Nazis at that time, we’re not coerced. We’re not forced to sacrifice our own lives to resist American legal death clinics. Voting for the institutions that support abortion violates our moral responsibility. In this case, while the conservatives are imperfect, the institutions that support abortion are strongly concentrated on the left and this includes Mr. Obama.

    When it comes to war, the intent is not to kill innocent people. In Iraq and Afghanistan, though it’s not possible to prove one way or the other, there’s a strong case to be made that more “innocent” lives were saved by the war than were lost by the war. Life doesn’t always give us a choice between 100% life and 100% death. Sometimes, it requires that we pick between some death and more death. Would it have been acceptable to bomb Auschwitz in WWII? That would have killed thousands of innocent people, but it would have slowed the death machine itself and possibly saved thousands more. Americans found mass graves in Iraq. It was well-known that people who could potentially stand up to Hussein frequently disappeared into thin air. Hussein’s son employed industrial plastic shredders to torture and kill people. Hussein gassed the Kurds. How’d he do that without chemical weapons? He had them, but they weren’t new ones or from an active program. However, they were lethal enough. Granted, death by an accident isn’t any less dead than intentional death, but there’s something to be said for intent. Are we, using the best knowledge that we have, working to save as many lives as we can or working to end them? Complacency is not an option.

    My position is that changing hearts is important, but changing the law is important, too. One of these does not come at the expense of the other. We have to try at least a two-pronged approach. While doing this, we need to understand that God is in control and that, with Christ, death is not permanent.

  57. Carrie,

    By the time a woman is able to tell whether or not she’s pregnant I feel it’s wrong to end her pregnancy.

    As for things like the “morning after” pill… here’s what is said about it:

    Although scientists aren’t completely sure how it works, they believe that levonorgestrel prevents pregnancy either by stopping the ovulation process or by disrupting the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the Fallopian tubes. Some speculate that the drug may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting as well, perhaps by making the uterine lining less receptive to the egg.

    You won’t find me out campaigning against something like that.

  58. Carrie,

    By the time a woman is able to tell whether or not she’s pregnant I feel it’s wrong to end her pregnancy.

    As for things like the “morning after” pill… here’s what is said about it:

    Although scientists aren’t completely sure how it works, they believe that levonorgestrel prevents pregnancy either by stopping the ovulation process or by disrupting the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the Fallopian tubes. Some speculate that the drug may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting as well, perhaps by making the uterine lining less receptive to the egg.

    You won’t find me out campaigning against something like that.

  59. When in doubt, I always choose the lesser of two evils. No candidate in this election is without flaw. But there is definitely one candidate (as always, with politicians, and human-kind as a whole) who is less evil, and more right. You should just vote for McCain…. you’d sleep better at night. 🙂 ….or, don’t vote at all. Just PLEASE don’t vote for a man who so blatantly opposes God’s will.

    Click on this link to see the video—–wow!

    Watch it again. And yes, the election is about much more than the issue of abortion. But that issue alone is fundamental. It’s one of the 10 commandments, for crying out loud. Rationalize all you want, but deep in the heart of every one of us, we KNOW that every life is God’s creation. Every life (and in my opinion, especially the lives of the innocents… the unborn we assist in murdering just may be the ones who would bring about revival in this depraved and fallen world) deserves a chance at being.

  60. When in doubt, I always choose the lesser of two evils. No candidate in this election is without flaw. But there is definitely one candidate (as always, with politicians, and human-kind as a whole) who is less evil, and more right. You should just vote for McCain…. you’d sleep better at night. 🙂 ….or, don’t vote at all. Just PLEASE don’t vote for a man who so blatantly opposes God’s will.

    Click on this link to see the video—–wow!

    Watch it again. And yes, the election is about much more than the issue of abortion. But that issue alone is fundamental. It’s one of the 10 commandments, for crying out loud. Rationalize all you want, but deep in the heart of every one of us, we KNOW that every life is God’s creation. Every life (and in my opinion, especially the lives of the innocents… the unborn we assist in murdering just may be the ones who would bring about revival in this depraved and fallen world) deserves a chance at being.

  61. Popular Christian author Donald Miller just published a great article on his blog that I think all should read:

    http://donmilleris.com/2008/11/03/from-reagan-to-obama-a-brief-political-history/

  62. Popular Christian author Donald Miller just published a great article on his blog that I think all should read:

    http://donmilleris.com/2008/11/03/from-reagan-to-obama-a-brief-political-history/

  63. donny,
    I haven’t waded through all the comments here yet, but I did read your blog and Donald Miller’s blog. love him and his non- “Christianese” approach to things.

    I must say, you have gotten me to think more about this election than I ever intended to. 🙂

    I feel you do have some very good arguements for your potential choice of Obama.

    Concerning the abortion issue, one of my chief concerns is that I have heard that as senator Obama voted to end the lives of babies that survived an abortion procedure. I cannot quote exact voting records at the moment, but I am sure someone more versed on this topic could. Or perhaps they already have. If he did vote for this, I would be interested in hearing his reasonings behind doing so.

    In my gut, I do not trust Obama. I feel he is very eloquent, has some great ideas and is full of energy and hope. But I am not sure I know the man underneath all of that. His character matters most to me honestly, as I feel his character will determine his choices if he becomes president. And I have not completely answered the character question in my heart yet.

    thank you for continuing to make me think Donny.
    Val:)

  64. donny,
    I haven’t waded through all the comments here yet, but I did read your blog and Donald Miller’s blog. love him and his non- “Christianese” approach to things.

    I must say, you have gotten me to think more about this election than I ever intended to. 🙂

    I feel you do have some very good arguements for your potential choice of Obama.

    Concerning the abortion issue, one of my chief concerns is that I have heard that as senator Obama voted to end the lives of babies that survived an abortion procedure. I cannot quote exact voting records at the moment, but I am sure someone more versed on this topic could. Or perhaps they already have. If he did vote for this, I would be interested in hearing his reasonings behind doing so.

    In my gut, I do not trust Obama. I feel he is very eloquent, has some great ideas and is full of energy and hope. But I am not sure I know the man underneath all of that. His character matters most to me honestly, as I feel his character will determine his choices if he becomes president. And I have not completely answered the character question in my heart yet.

    thank you for continuing to make me think Donny.
    Val:)

  65. Donny, thanks for posting the link to Miller’s blog. I love him as an author and person, though he and I arrive at different conclusions regarding this election. I thought I’d copy my comment from his blog over here, since it’s relevant to your recent posts as well:

    This sounds very enlightened and intelligent, but I’m still not convinced.

    Rather, this is how I think it goes down: Many of us from similar backgrounds are raised from early childhood to be Good Republicans™. We eventually grow up to discover the world isn’t what we thought it was, and in our disillusionment, we find ourselves becoming quickly disenfranchised with the political party we synonymized with being the “correct” party throughout our childhood. We ask ourselves, “What if the OTHER side was the right side?” And the allure of that possibility is just so tempting that we convert.

    It’s kind of like having a crisis of faith, but in a way that feels safer and has less far-reaching implications. It seems like a really big, complicated deal to ditch Christianity and become an atheist. Not quite such a big deal to switch from being a Christian Republican to being a Christian Democrat. It’s a safer rebellion. Not that we’re rebels without a cause; we’re just lashing out over the realization as adults that the world is bent and broken, and the political party we grew up supporting (because we were told it was the “Christian” party) failed us, so it becomes an easy scapegoat.

    I strongly dislike both parties. I grew up Republican, had my Democratic phase a few years ago, and then realized that the Democrats weren’t any more correct than the Republicans, AND much of what they supported ran contrary to my faith, more so than that of the almost-equally-corrupt Republican party.

    As much as the Obama camp has tried to paint McCain as another George W. Bush, I don’t see that when I look at what he proposes and what he stands for. I see someone who admittedly voted in alignment with Bush much of the time, likely because he thought what Bush proposed was “more correct” than the alternatives, but who would do things quite differently if he were not just one voice among many and had the ability to fix what’s broken.

    I tried, I really tried, to become an Obama fan. And I don’t think he’s the Antichrist that the radical right has painted him to be. But I think that, if I’m honest with myself, my wanting to support him has to do more with my wanting to rebel against the upbringing that I felt failed me later in life than it does with truly believing that Obama is what’s best for America. I suspect that’s true of many of my fellow brothers and sisters in the church as well.

    At the end of the day, I have to go with my gut, my heart. And that tells me that though he’s far from ideal, John McCain is a better choice than Barack Obama.

  66. Donny, thanks for posting the link to Miller’s blog. I love him as an author and person, though he and I arrive at different conclusions regarding this election. I thought I’d copy my comment from his blog over here, since it’s relevant to your recent posts as well:

    This sounds very enlightened and intelligent, but I’m still not convinced.

    Rather, this is how I think it goes down: Many of us from similar backgrounds are raised from early childhood to be Good Republicans™. We eventually grow up to discover the world isn’t what we thought it was, and in our disillusionment, we find ourselves becoming quickly disenfranchised with the political party we synonymized with being the “correct” party throughout our childhood. We ask ourselves, “What if the OTHER side was the right side?” And the allure of that possibility is just so tempting that we convert.

    It’s kind of like having a crisis of faith, but in a way that feels safer and has less far-reaching implications. It seems like a really big, complicated deal to ditch Christianity and become an atheist. Not quite such a big deal to switch from being a Christian Republican to being a Christian Democrat. It’s a safer rebellion. Not that we’re rebels without a cause; we’re just lashing out over the realization as adults that the world is bent and broken, and the political party we grew up supporting (because we were told it was the “Christian” party) failed us, so it becomes an easy scapegoat.

    I strongly dislike both parties. I grew up Republican, had my Democratic phase a few years ago, and then realized that the Democrats weren’t any more correct than the Republicans, AND much of what they supported ran contrary to my faith, more so than that of the almost-equally-corrupt Republican party.

    As much as the Obama camp has tried to paint McCain as another George W. Bush, I don’t see that when I look at what he proposes and what he stands for. I see someone who admittedly voted in alignment with Bush much of the time, likely because he thought what Bush proposed was “more correct” than the alternatives, but who would do things quite differently if he were not just one voice among many and had the ability to fix what’s broken.

    I tried, I really tried, to become an Obama fan. And I don’t think he’s the Antichrist that the radical right has painted him to be. But I think that, if I’m honest with myself, my wanting to support him has to do more with my wanting to rebel against the upbringing that I felt failed me later in life than it does with truly believing that Obama is what’s best for America. I suspect that’s true of many of my fellow brothers and sisters in the church as well.

    At the end of the day, I have to go with my gut, my heart. And that tells me that though he’s far from ideal, John McCain is a better choice than Barack Obama.

  67. As to the idea of God (or Obama) being a baby killer by the standards laid in that email, I think it’s a very thought-provoking question you’ve raised. I love questions that force me to wrestle through difficult topics in my mind, and that’s why I’m a constant reader of your blog.

    My response is that I don’t think the logic quite carries through, because while God gives us free will, he also tells us in no uncertain terms, “Do not murder.” And it wasn’t even given as a suggestion, it was given as law. Why give us free agency and laws simultaneously? It makes me think that perhaps both are important.

    I had to explain to my young son yesterday why Obama is NOT a baby killer, as had been communicated to him in a poorly-worded, reckless comment he overheard.

    But I do think there is a flaw in the line of thinking that says, “Abortion is wrong, but it should be a legal choice.” Free will makes EVERYTHING a choice, regardless of the laws of any country. The question is whether we want the laws of our country to reflect the laws of the Kingdom.

    While I completely agree with your assessment that it’s most important to compassionately and lovingly fix the heart issue that’s behind abortion, I think that there’s some front-end work to be done as well.

    Example: I recently went to the emergency room with a severe toothache. Turns out a tooth became infected and needed a root canal, badly. The real underlying issue was that the tooth needed a root canal — that was the heart issue, if you will. But the short-term symptom needed to be treated as well. That is, I had to go on an antibiotic for a week to clear up the infection before the root canal could be performed. Without first addressing the immediate emergency, the long-term solution couldn’t be addressed effectively. I think we’re facing a similar scenario with abortion.

    Do I think McCain will be able to overturn Roe v. Wade? No, I don’t. It would take a Republican majority in Congress AND a Republican president to successfully implement a Supreme Court that, even then, might or might not do it. (And though I would hope to see it happen for the express purpose of overturning Roe v. Wade, I also cringe to think what other legislation an overly-Republican government would try to weasel through.)

    The reason I’m still voting McCain, as far as the abortion issue is concerned, is that I think that a Democratic president coupled with a Democratic Supermajority will give us so much more abortion legislation than just Roe v. Wade to work to overturn in years to come. The Dems know that Roe is a target, so I foresee them busily working for the next four years to get as many reinforcements as possible on the books to make it harder for the pro-lifers when the majority inevitably swings back from the left toward the right.

    From that perspective, I don’t think it’s possible for me to really set abortion aside and focus exclusively on other issues.

  68. As to the idea of God (or Obama) being a baby killer by the standards laid in that email, I think it’s a very thought-provoking question you’ve raised. I love questions that force me to wrestle through difficult topics in my mind, and that’s why I’m a constant reader of your blog.

    My response is that I don’t think the logic quite carries through, because while God gives us free will, he also tells us in no uncertain terms, “Do not murder.” And it wasn’t even given as a suggestion, it was given as law. Why give us free agency and laws simultaneously? It makes me think that perhaps both are important.

    I had to explain to my young son yesterday why Obama is NOT a baby killer, as had been communicated to him in a poorly-worded, reckless comment he overheard.

    But I do think there is a flaw in the line of thinking that says, “Abortion is wrong, but it should be a legal choice.” Free will makes EVERYTHING a choice, regardless of the laws of any country. The question is whether we want the laws of our country to reflect the laws of the Kingdom.

    While I completely agree with your assessment that it’s most important to compassionately and lovingly fix the heart issue that’s behind abortion, I think that there’s some front-end work to be done as well.

    Example: I recently went to the emergency room with a severe toothache. Turns out a tooth became infected and needed a root canal, badly. The real underlying issue was that the tooth needed a root canal — that was the heart issue, if you will. But the short-term symptom needed to be treated as well. That is, I had to go on an antibiotic for a week to clear up the infection before the root canal could be performed. Without first addressing the immediate emergency, the long-term solution couldn’t be addressed effectively. I think we’re facing a similar scenario with abortion.

    Do I think McCain will be able to overturn Roe v. Wade? No, I don’t. It would take a Republican majority in Congress AND a Republican president to successfully implement a Supreme Court that, even then, might or might not do it. (And though I would hope to see it happen for the express purpose of overturning Roe v. Wade, I also cringe to think what other legislation an overly-Republican government would try to weasel through.)

    The reason I’m still voting McCain, as far as the abortion issue is concerned, is that I think that a Democratic president coupled with a Democratic Supermajority will give us so much more abortion legislation than just Roe v. Wade to work to overturn in years to come. The Dems know that Roe is a target, so I foresee them busily working for the next four years to get as many reinforcements as possible on the books to make it harder for the pro-lifers when the majority inevitably swings back from the left toward the right.

    From that perspective, I don’t think it’s possible for me to really set abortion aside and focus exclusively on other issues.

  69. Hey Donny. I know what you’re saying. In my reading, I’ve been persuaded that the 8th week is the point at which a central nervous system can develop, so the fetus can feel pain while the pregnancy is aborted. I can understand why someone would object to that. Just wondering if you feel that before that 8th week, the fetus has a soul, or is there another factor in there that you’re considering?

  70. Hey Donny. I know what you’re saying. In my reading, I’ve been persuaded that the 8th week is the point at which a central nervous system can develop, so the fetus can feel pain while the pregnancy is aborted. I can understand why someone would object to that. Just wondering if you feel that before that 8th week, the fetus has a soul, or is there another factor in there that you’re considering?

  71. You kinow, there is in all the midst of this a question first of what is “definitionally true” and what is actually “opinion.”

    Like it or not – and this is quite simple – if the unborn child is a living person, then the taking of that life for personal gain or to avoid personal suffering is by definition murder.

    Thus, as harsh as the term sounds, saying that a woman and her doctor are “baby killers” is not a mean-spirited phrase (even if it is used that way), it is simply a description of the individuals in relationship to their own private actions.

    And since we are a tolerant society, we ought to tolerate all life as much as we are able, and not allow the taking of life, even if it is at best “borderline” alive or “borderline” human (that is, a matter of debate as to if it is a human being or not).

    To devalue a single life based on development, size, age, where it lives, or its level of dependency is to devalue all life that is less than any other person in the same department.

    Thus, every woman, no matter what her age, is discriminated against when a little girl is aborted, and every woman who is not yet dead is of no value everytime the youngest of female human beings is killed for the comfort or conveinence of another human being (especially at the hands of a male abortionist or because a male influence is the source of such destructive behavior).

    As a result, the feminist destroys her own cause by supporting abortion, which I suppose is why every feminist leader prior to the late 1960’s was pro-life.

    By the way, I would also note that the Hitler analogy only works in-so-far as we acknowledge that countless young girls are given the choices of “suffer a pregnancy” and “abortion” as Hitler said “suffer having these Jews” or “kill the Jews” as choices to the German nation. This is the case in most abortion clinics. If other choices were promoted, such as adoption and the ability to be provided for until the child is born, the analogy I think would fall apart. I do believe that abortion is actually much worse than the holocost.

    Probably just as important, it is destroying our economy (and so injuring the living), since 1/3 of our generation never was born, which means fewer workers, inventors, entreprenuers, leaders, and such, thus making immigration the only thing that is enlarging our population and economy at this point in time. Oddly enough, the only thing that is really reducing the number of abortions is the number of girls that have been born in the last generation due to having been aborted by the last generation.

    It has been pointed out – and I think rightly – that we should call abortion a civil rights issue. That is, it is an issue of generational discrimination, wherein the present generation destroys the following generation, treating it as an object in a manner that reminds us of how slaveowners are depicted of viewing their slaves – as objects and not human beings. In this sense, we could also note that this view of other human beings as mere objects is in fact what pornography and most of the media, as well as our youth, do with other human beings. It is the selfish use of human beings – in every relationship imaginable where others exist for our selfish use – that is probably the single most cause of a large majority of the relationship problems that we have in the present era. In other words, we have dehumanized each other, and so are dehumanized, and wonder why we can’t seem to have sturdy relationships with others. Even worse, we are teaching our young people that in order to meet their relationship needs, they must first dehumanize themselves.

    And so, abortion is not only a problem, but evidence of a much deeper and horrid evil that is central to the present age.

  72. You kinow, there is in all the midst of this a question first of what is “definitionally true” and what is actually “opinion.”

    Like it or not – and this is quite simple – if the unborn child is a living person, then the taking of that life for personal gain or to avoid personal suffering is by definition murder.

    Thus, as harsh as the term sounds, saying that a woman and her doctor are “baby killers” is not a mean-spirited phrase (even if it is used that way), it is simply a description of the individuals in relationship to their own private actions.

    And since we are a tolerant society, we ought to tolerate all life as much as we are able, and not allow the taking of life, even if it is at best “borderline” alive or “borderline” human (that is, a matter of debate as to if it is a human being or not).

    To devalue a single life based on development, size, age, where it lives, or its level of dependency is to devalue all life that is less than any other person in the same department.

    Thus, every woman, no matter what her age, is discriminated against when a little girl is aborted, and every woman who is not yet dead is of no value everytime the youngest of female human beings is killed for the comfort or conveinence of another human being (especially at the hands of a male abortionist or because a male influence is the source of such destructive behavior).

    As a result, the feminist destroys her own cause by supporting abortion, which I suppose is why every feminist leader prior to the late 1960’s was pro-life.

    By the way, I would also note that the Hitler analogy only works in-so-far as we acknowledge that countless young girls are given the choices of “suffer a pregnancy” and “abortion” as Hitler said “suffer having these Jews” or “kill the Jews” as choices to the German nation. This is the case in most abortion clinics. If other choices were promoted, such as adoption and the ability to be provided for until the child is born, the analogy I think would fall apart. I do believe that abortion is actually much worse than the holocost.

    Probably just as important, it is destroying our economy (and so injuring the living), since 1/3 of our generation never was born, which means fewer workers, inventors, entreprenuers, leaders, and such, thus making immigration the only thing that is enlarging our population and economy at this point in time. Oddly enough, the only thing that is really reducing the number of abortions is the number of girls that have been born in the last generation due to having been aborted by the last generation.

    It has been pointed out – and I think rightly – that we should call abortion a civil rights issue. That is, it is an issue of generational discrimination, wherein the present generation destroys the following generation, treating it as an object in a manner that reminds us of how slaveowners are depicted of viewing their slaves – as objects and not human beings. In this sense, we could also note that this view of other human beings as mere objects is in fact what pornography and most of the media, as well as our youth, do with other human beings. It is the selfish use of human beings – in every relationship imaginable where others exist for our selfish use – that is probably the single most cause of a large majority of the relationship problems that we have in the present era. In other words, we have dehumanized each other, and so are dehumanized, and wonder why we can’t seem to have sturdy relationships with others. Even worse, we are teaching our young people that in order to meet their relationship needs, they must first dehumanize themselves.

    And so, abortion is not only a problem, but evidence of a much deeper and horrid evil that is central to the present age.

  73. I wanted to add a comment on changing the law…

    Throughout the Old & New Testaments, I believe it is clear that God rules the world by two separate means – a kingdom of grace and a kingdom of law. The first is meant to be the avenue of the believers, the latter of the civil government. The believer does what is right because of repentance, but the unbeliever only does what is right because of fear from either the external law or fear from an internal law received from personal experience or the experience of others. Either way, the law motivates the unbeliever, and the unbeliever (who hates the law and wants to do whatever they want to do) only operates based on the law imposed upon him/her.

    We are told in Romans 13 that the Government only has its authority becasue it is a deacon (helper) of God for these purposes, and the Old Testament makes it quite clear that governments are removed when they try the patience of God by going far enough against their mission, which is to establish and uphold the moral code of law that exists from the foundation of the world.

    As a result, the first and most important duty of the government (and we who influence the government) is to pursue bringing the law of our land as much in line with God’s law as possible.

    Oddly enough, this is also what the Muslim, who believes in a dramatically different law and a god of dramatically different nature, is openly trying to do if he/she is a true believer and not a “moderate” as most are. As a result, we can expect that in the future we will see moves to legalize polygamy, wife-beating, and the harming or murder of homosexuals in some form, or at least that muslims not be condemned for such actions that are in accord with Sharia law.

    The difference is that Christians aren’t trying to force the government to be Christian (Christianity has an inherent belief in the separation of Church & State, with the former influencing the latter) while Islam sees no separation – the Church is the State.

    My point is, we ought to try and have the law changed because it is something God hates, and because otherwise human beings will act more like animals than human beings (though there’s no real difference if you believe in the Theory of Evolution).

    Of all the laws that we should fight for, this is #1 because the unborn child never has the chance to live a life that violates God’s law and to join or reject the faithful in a clear and open manner. At least give the unborn the chance to become an atheist rather than kill it before it has a chance! Give the child a chance to live a sexually perverted life, rather than taking the opportunity for the gain of the woman!

  74. I wanted to add a comment on changing the law…

    Throughout the Old & New Testaments, I believe it is clear that God rules the world by two separate means – a kingdom of grace and a kingdom of law. The first is meant to be the avenue of the believers, the latter of the civil government. The believer does what is right because of repentance, but the unbeliever only does what is right because of fear from either the external law or fear from an internal law received from personal experience or the experience of others. Either way, the law motivates the unbeliever, and the unbeliever (who hates the law and wants to do whatever they want to do) only operates based on the law imposed upon him/her.

    We are told in Romans 13 that the Government only has its authority becasue it is a deacon (helper) of God for these purposes, and the Old Testament makes it quite clear that governments are removed when they try the patience of God by going far enough against their mission, which is to establish and uphold the moral code of law that exists from the foundation of the world.

    As a result, the first and most important duty of the government (and we who influence the government) is to pursue bringing the law of our land as much in line with God’s law as possible.

    Oddly enough, this is also what the Muslim, who believes in a dramatically different law and a god of dramatically different nature, is openly trying to do if he/she is a true believer and not a “moderate” as most are. As a result, we can expect that in the future we will see moves to legalize polygamy, wife-beating, and the harming or murder of homosexuals in some form, or at least that muslims not be condemned for such actions that are in accord with Sharia law.

    The difference is that Christians aren’t trying to force the government to be Christian (Christianity has an inherent belief in the separation of Church & State, with the former influencing the latter) while Islam sees no separation – the Church is the State.

    My point is, we ought to try and have the law changed because it is something God hates, and because otherwise human beings will act more like animals than human beings (though there’s no real difference if you believe in the Theory of Evolution).

    Of all the laws that we should fight for, this is #1 because the unborn child never has the chance to live a life that violates God’s law and to join or reject the faithful in a clear and open manner. At least give the unborn the chance to become an atheist rather than kill it before it has a chance! Give the child a chance to live a sexually perverted life, rather than taking the opportunity for the gain of the woman!

  75. A well done argument but it contains one little flaw. God is man-made – not the other way around. God doesn’t allow choice nor did He give it to us. Choice exists because we exist and we exist because of a freak of nature (and dinosaurs were not a plant to test our faith). You have the choice to believe in myths if you want, but you would be better off taking responsibility for your own life. Bad things happen because WE let them not HE. WE have to be the change we want. If you oppose abortion then get out and fight for changes in the world that will decrease unwanted pregnancy in the first place. Making it illegal only marginalizes people you don’t know and don’t care about. Start caring and fight (not in the violent sense that is) for proper education, proper health care, proper wages and jobs for people. In short, care for the other, not you own sense of what is right.

  76. A well done argument but it contains one little flaw. God is man-made – not the other way around. God doesn’t allow choice nor did He give it to us. Choice exists because we exist and we exist because of a freak of nature (and dinosaurs were not a plant to test our faith). You have the choice to believe in myths if you want, but you would be better off taking responsibility for your own life. Bad things happen because WE let them not HE. WE have to be the change we want. If you oppose abortion then get out and fight for changes in the world that will decrease unwanted pregnancy in the first place. Making it illegal only marginalizes people you don’t know and don’t care about. Start caring and fight (not in the violent sense that is) for proper education, proper health care, proper wages and jobs for people. In short, care for the other, not you own sense of what is right.

  77. It seems this entire argument boils down to whether God is culpable for his creation’s activities. Many non-believers would say yes, assuming God can foresee the future perfectly. But I don’t think this is very specific to abortion. We do outlaw certain practices because we find them too violent for a civilized society… rape and murder come to mind. So if abortion is really on that same level, then I suppose we ought to outlaw it in all circumstances. The question would just be whether that is true. This is all muddy water to cross. I definitely think that the murder of animals is on par with the murder of unborn babies (assuming those babies have a nervous system), and we haven’t outlawed killing animals (though perhaps we should). It’s all tricky, and I don’t have the answer yet.

  78. It seems this entire argument boils down to whether God is culpable for his creation’s activities. Many non-believers would say yes, assuming God can foresee the future perfectly. But I don’t think this is very specific to abortion. We do outlaw certain practices because we find them too violent for a civilized society… rape and murder come to mind. So if abortion is really on that same level, then I suppose we ought to outlaw it in all circumstances. The question would just be whether that is true. This is all muddy water to cross. I definitely think that the murder of animals is on par with the murder of unborn babies (assuming those babies have a nervous system), and we haven’t outlawed killing animals (though perhaps we should). It’s all tricky, and I don’t have the answer yet.

  79. Carrie,

    For me it’s not about whether or not the fetus can feel pain. I’m not concerned with whether or not death is accomplished in a “humane” manner.

    An 8 week old fetus definitely has a soul, there is no doubt in my mind.

  80. Carrie,

    For me it’s not about whether or not the fetus can feel pain. I’m not concerned with whether or not death is accomplished in a “humane” manner.

    An 8 week old fetus definitely has a soul, there is no doubt in my mind.

  81. Thank you so much for your thoughts. I’ve really struggled in this election to break out of the “to be a good christian you have to be republican” mold. I live in a very red, seminary town and was chastised by many just for be open to the possibilities and even thinking about voting democratic. I have even been hoping today not to be asking who I voted for because the thought of having to defend myself is a little overwhelming. I hate being a “secret” voter, but I appreciate so much your boldness, I needed that encouragement today.

  82. Thank you so much for your thoughts. I’ve really struggled in this election to break out of the “to be a good christian you have to be republican” mold. I live in a very red, seminary town and was chastised by many just for be open to the possibilities and even thinking about voting democratic. I have even been hoping today not to be asking who I voted for because the thought of having to defend myself is a little overwhelming. I hate being a “secret” voter, but I appreciate so much your boldness, I needed that encouragement today.

  83. By the way, for those who question Barack Obama’s Christianity, what do you think of this:

    ??

  84. By the way, for those who question Barack Obama’s Christianity, what do you think of this:

    ??

  85. Aww, Taryn. You rock.

  86. Aww, Taryn. You rock.

  87. As a Christian who voted for Obama, please allow me the opportunity to explain why:

    1) How many verses in the Bible directly address abortion? Zero. How many directly address poverty and oppression? Over 2,000.

    2) Author Jim Wallis did a good job of explaining “pro-life” when he said, ““Choosing life” is a constant biblical theme, so I will choose candidates who have the most consistent ethic of life, addressing all the threats to human life and dignity that we face — not just one. Thirty-thousand children dying globally each day of preventable hunger and disease is a life issue. The genocide in Darfur is a life issue. Health care is a life issue. War is a life issue. The death penalty is a life issue. And on abortion, I will choose candidates who have the best chance to pursue the practical and proven policies which could dramatically reduce the number of abortions in America and therefore save precious unborn lives, rather than those who simply repeat the polarized legal debates and “pro-choice” and “pro-life” mantras from either side.” (www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=3166)

    3) The idea that simply overturning Roe v. Wade will end abortion is as outdated as it is uncaring. It is time to try a new approach; addressing the social and economic reasons behind why most women feel the need for an abortion, and doing it out of a feeling of love and genuine kindness towards the women forced to make such hard decisions. The old way has failed, let’s be willing to open our hearts to a new way of addressing the issue. As Don and others have mentioned before, http://www.prolifeproobama.com has some good research on the issue.

    We Christians need to take a step back for a moment and look at the big picture. We need more dialogue and less shouting from both sides. Consider this thought from another blogger at “God’s Politics:”

    “On one side, so-called “values voters” rally for the right to life of the baby. But they see my cousin’s death and the displacement of his family (in Iraq) as “collateral damage” in a war for freedom and their own security.

    On the other side, so-called “change voters” protest a war that claims the life of innocents. But they see my unborn daughter’s life or death as a “freedom of choice.”

    When I look at the reality of my family in light of a consistent ethic of life, all I hear from most politicians and preachers are inconsistencies. Both sides argue freedom for a way of life. But is any of this really about freedom, or just misplaced selfishness? Could it be as Bono once sang that, “what you thought was freedom was just greed.”
    http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=3411

  88. As a Christian who voted for Obama, please allow me the opportunity to explain why:

    1) How many verses in the Bible directly address abortion? Zero. How many directly address poverty and oppression? Over 2,000.

    2) Author Jim Wallis did a good job of explaining “pro-life” when he said, ““Choosing life” is a constant biblical theme, so I will choose candidates who have the most consistent ethic of life, addressing all the threats to human life and dignity that we face — not just one. Thirty-thousand children dying globally each day of preventable hunger and disease is a life issue. The genocide in Darfur is a life issue. Health care is a life issue. War is a life issue. The death penalty is a life issue. And on abortion, I will choose candidates who have the best chance to pursue the practical and proven policies which could dramatically reduce the number of abortions in America and therefore save precious unborn lives, rather than those who simply repeat the polarized legal debates and “pro-choice” and “pro-life” mantras from either side.” (www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=3166)

    3) The idea that simply overturning Roe v. Wade will end abortion is as outdated as it is uncaring. It is time to try a new approach; addressing the social and economic reasons behind why most women feel the need for an abortion, and doing it out of a feeling of love and genuine kindness towards the women forced to make such hard decisions. The old way has failed, let’s be willing to open our hearts to a new way of addressing the issue. As Don and others have mentioned before, http://www.prolifeproobama.com has some good research on the issue.

    We Christians need to take a step back for a moment and look at the big picture. We need more dialogue and less shouting from both sides. Consider this thought from another blogger at “God’s Politics:”

    “On one side, so-called “values voters” rally for the right to life of the baby. But they see my cousin’s death and the displacement of his family (in Iraq) as “collateral damage” in a war for freedom and their own security.

    On the other side, so-called “change voters” protest a war that claims the life of innocents. But they see my unborn daughter’s life or death as a “freedom of choice.”

    When I look at the reality of my family in light of a consistent ethic of life, all I hear from most politicians and preachers are inconsistencies. Both sides argue freedom for a way of life. But is any of this really about freedom, or just misplaced selfishness? Could it be as Bono once sang that, “what you thought was freedom was just greed.”
    http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=3411

  89. Wow. This discussion turned everything I believed about pro-choice vs. pro-life on its head. Thanks for the “changing hearts” perspective.

  90. Wow. This discussion turned everything I believed about pro-choice vs. pro-life on its head. Thanks for the “changing hearts” perspective.

  91. All military service personel are voluntary, unborn children are not. I believe the so called ” freedom of choice” movment will be the first to insist on reinstituting the draft.

    As far as Bono’s comment… how much money is made in the abortion industry? Billions. Greed indeed.

  92. All military service personel are voluntary, unborn children are not. I believe the so called ” freedom of choice” movment will be the first to insist on reinstituting the draft.

    As far as Bono’s comment… how much money is made in the abortion industry? Billions. Greed indeed.

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